Virgin Mary

 

Studio – John Dickson

In 2011, a prominent Anglican church in New Zealand displayed a large poster of the Virgin Mary on its busy corner site in the middle of Auckland, the country’s biggest city. The poster showed Mary with one hand covering her mouth in shock and the other holding a positive pregnancy test. 

The church ran a caption contest on its website which, as you can imagine, drew some questionable responses: 

“Yay! I hope it’s a girl.” 

“”If I say I’m a virgin, mum and dad won’t kill me.” 

The poster made headlines around the world. “Virgin Mary billboard sparks outrage in New Zealand,” ran the headline in the UK Telegraph.

Auckland’s Catholic spokesperson said Mary should not be depicted as a “shocked solo mother, but a young woman who has given her assent and trust to God.” 

But the Anglican minister behind it defended the poster, saying:

 

“It’s real. Christmas is real. It’s about a real pregnancy, a real mother and a real child. It’s about real anxiety, courage and hope.”

It’s all a bit of a storm in a teacup, to be honest. But there is something about Mary. She stirs up big feelings. She has for millenia. Some have perhaps given her more prominence than she would feel comfortable with. Others have hacked down her statues in Reforming zeal. Others never think about her, except perhaps when they come across a nativity scene in a shopping mall (even that’s becoming a rarity).

I think it’s time we met Mary properly this Christmas. 

I’m John Dickson and this is Undeceptions. 

John Dickson
Great. Uh, Matthew, you teach at a Protestant college. What’s a lovely Protestant like you being, uh, interested in Mary? What’s all that about?

Matt Milliner
Yeah. Yeah. How can you not be interested in Mary? I mean, if I, if I wanted to know about you, John, and I said, but don’t talk about your mom, whatever you do, John, only you, because I wouldn’t want to, you know, make you think I didn’t care about you. So, so please never bring up your mom. That would be a very bizarre relationship. So we talk about Mary because we care about Jesus.

Studio – John Dickson

That’s Dr Matt Milliner, Professor of Art History here with me at Wheaton College. Matt’s particular field of study is ‘icons of the Virgin Mary’, which he is often told is not a subject men usually go for. He wrote a great piece for the New York Times a few years back about why men in particular could learn quite a bit from Mary. We’ll link to it in the show notes. 

Matt teaches a class on the Virgin Mary here at Wheaton … with my next guest, Dr Amy Peeler. 

Amy is Kenneth T. Wessner Professor of New Testament at Wheaton College and the author of several books including her successful (and controversial) Women and the Gender of God. 

John Dickson
Amy, thank you so much

Amy Peeler
So glad to be with you today. We’re coming down from level 3! Oh, this is going to be fun! Woo! That’s so good! 

John Dickson
Um, for those who don’t know Mary, other than, you know, everyone’s heard something about Mary, the birth of Jesus. Can you, can you tell us just her narrative as it emerges from our sources. 

Amy Peeler
Absolutely. So the curtain opens, as it were, on her life as a young girl. We don’t know her age, but if she’s kind of like most girls in her part of the world at that time, she may be around 13 or 14. Now that might sound, whoa, this is incredibly young, but, um, in societies, you know, it’s  … that made sense at the time. She wasn’t unusual. So, uh, the curtain opens when, uh, God sends Gabriel to her place to present to her the invitation to bear the Messiah. And upon contemplation, saying yes, then we trace a bit both through Jesus’ birth, a few events when he’s young, when he, uh, they take him into the temple when he’s 12. Uh, we see her make a few appearances throughout his ministry, culminating on the cross. She’s present. And then we hear of her in the book of Acts that she’s gathered with other Christians in the upper room, praying in anticipation of the coming of the spirit. So that is what we know.  Of course, people have been very interested to fill in the gaps. And so you have some. early literature, not in the New Testament, but not too far out, wondering about her own birth and her own beginning in childhood. And then also a lot of reflection on her death and what that might’ve looked like. So those are instructive and interesting, but we’re only given the time from Jesus’s conception to the coming of the Holy Spirit. That’s what we know from the New Testament.

Studio – John Dickson

The four Gospels, especially, Luke … and the Book of Acts are the primary sources for Mary. 

Mark, as I’ve said before, is usually dated by scholars to the mid-to-late 60s AD. Mary’s likely dead by then, but plenty of people who’d known her were still alive when the Gospels were written.

Luke is likely written in the 70s. The book of Acts (Luke’s second volume) was written around the same time. Matthew is from perhaps the 80s. And John – which offers some really interesting, unique details about Mary – was composed in the 90s AD, 60 or so years after Jesus. 

I’ve often been struck by the fact that the latest of the New Testament sources (John) was still written closer in time to its subject than the very best Roman source for the emperor of Jesus’ day. That’s Tacitus writing about Emperor Tiberius 80 years after the emperor’s death.

That’s just for free today! If you want more on that sort of stuff, check out episode 7 ‘Gospel Truth’ and episode 126 ‘Jesus Biography’. 

The first reference to Mary isn’t in a Gospel. It’s from Paul’s letter to the Galatians, which was written more than 15 years before the Gospel of Mark (around AD 50 – plus or minus a couple of years). Mary isn’t named but Paul summarises something he’d already taught the Galatians when he was with them in the 40s AD:

 “But when the fullness of time had come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law.” (Galatians 4:4).

This just means: born to a Jewish woman.

There were later writings that speak of Mary. But it’s hard to take them seriously as history.

The Protoevangelium of James (often called the Infancy Gospel of James) reads like a prequel to the Gospels. It tries to fill in the blanks about Mary’s early life and parents. 

It was written in the mid-second century – so about 130 years after Jesus. The ancient church never included this text as Scripture, but many Christians liked the information, including that Mary’s parents were named Anna and Joachim. 

Personally, I’m not even sure we can know that detail. But don’t let me spoil it for you!

John Dickson
And what was life like in Galilee, um, Galilee and Judea, uh, for a young woman? What could she have expected from life before things got in the way. Right? Before something unexpected happened. 

Amy Peeler
Um, I love that question. What were her expectations? What did she anticipate for her life? So we know from Luke that she and Joseph, to whom she is betrothed, are not the richest people on the block. So she, uh, was not, he was not the most wealthy when they go to present an offering in the temple in Luke 2 can’t give the best offering, uh, uh, an oxen, they have to give birds. And so that means that economically they’re on [00:06:00] the lower part of the scale …

John Dickson
… and this is mentioned in the Old Testament, isn’t it?

Amy Peeler
That’s right.

John Dickson
That if the poor can’t give, uh, a farm animal, they can give a, a pigeon or, or dove a dove or whatever. Um, okay. So is that an indication that they’re poor? Or, would that be going too far

Amy Peeler
It’s, you know, the economic structure is quite different than it is today. And so there’s not really a middle class. So most people are poor, and yet it is not, it seems, a subsistence living. Like, how am I going to get the next meal? Joseph is a Tecton. He probably worked with stone in the area. Many think that he might have been part of building projects at the nearby Sepphoris. So they …

John Dickson
Would it coincide with Jesus’s teenage years, actually.

Amy Peeler
Precisely. That’s precisely right. Yes. So they have an income, um, but, uh, they are not wealthy. And so she would have anticipated a, a simple but fulfilling life. Uh, she’s integrated into her community, she likely would have attended synagogue, heard the promises of God, heard the stories of God’s faithfulness to Israel, uh, would have known, uh, who God is. And we have indication from her responses that she trusts God and trusts God’s goodness.  

Studio – John Dickson

So, that’s what Mary’s life could have been like if she was any other teenage girl from Nazareth in Galilee. 

But instead … 

READING 

26 In the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27 to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. 28 The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”

29 Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30 But the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God. 31 You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.”

34 “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”

35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called[b] the Son of God. 36 Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be unable to conceive is in her sixth month. 37 For no word from God will ever fail.”

38 “I am the Lord’s servant,” Mary answered. “May your word to me be fulfilled.” Then the angel left her.

Studio – John Dickson

That’s from the first chapter of the Gospel of Luke. The passage is called the Annunciation – the announcement by the angel Gabriel to Mary that she would conceive and bear a son through a virgin birth, and that that son would be the Messiah – the son of God. There’s an ancient ‘Church of the Annunciation’ in Nazareth in Israel. And very cool … they recently found a house beneath the church  – the house dates to the first century, to the time of Mary! I visited a few years ago. My imagination ran wild!

Anyway, back to the Annunciation. It’s celebrated in the traditional Church calendar on 25th of March – 9 months out from Christmas, of course!

But some over the years have raised a very dark question about all this. What’s God doing forcing a young girl to get pregnant!?

It prompted Christian scholar and writer Karen Swallow Prior to publish an article The Atlantic addressing this charge. In it, she writes:

“As it turns out, the Annunciation offers an invitation to Mary to give a very modern turn to a very pre-modern event: verbal consent.” 

I wanted to explore this question with Amy Peeler.

John Dickson
Okay, so let’s turn to the virginal conception. Yes. Um, what do you make of claims of a, of really what Mary is experiencing as a divine rape. Which is a theme in, uh, Greco Roman literature. Um, is she coerced? I’ve, I’ve seen some authors who say the whole Christian story begins with the abuse of a woman by the alleged god.

Amy Peeler
Yes, and that is a stark critique that needs to be investigated. I have to say, when I started this research, that was not something I had heard much about in my own upbringing, but wanted to press into that full force. And when I did so and paid very close attention to the details given to us by Luke, I think we can say with all confidence that that is not what is going on. And let me give at least two responses to that, though there are more. It is an invitation that is presented to her. Now, this would be an incredible honor for a Jewish girl. Another feature of her religious life is that many Jews were looking forward to the rising of an indigenous leader. Of course, they were under the control of Rome, and they longed for their own freedom, that one of their own would rise up and be a king as David had been. And so when she is presented this invitation, you get to bear that Jewish king. That’s amazing. That is a wonderful thing. But even the way in which Gabriel presents this message, Mary then asks questions. She’s thoughtful. It isn’t an immediate, oh, this is awesome, for sure. She’s thinking about it seriously. And we see that in the narrative of Luke one. And then so importantly, nothing happens until she gives her verbal assent. And so the reason why I think coercion would be inadequate is that she is given sufficient information in order to make a decision. And Gabriel does not go back to God to report until she has given her verbal, yes, I want to be a part of this. Moreover, and this is delicate, but needs to be named: there is no, there is no sexual um, event that happens here. And this is tricky…

John Dickson
And that’s quite unlike the Greco Roman stories of gods behaving badly.

Amy Peeler: Exactly. And so the gods would pretend to be a different being or, uh, put the women to sleep and there was a sexual encounter. This is not the case. Because God is sovereign over the human body. God opens the womb in pregnancy. That is true in this event as well. The only difference being you have no contribution of a male passing on seed. But God’s sovereignty over a new life coming to be remains true.

Studio – John Dickson

Was the virgin birth story pinched from Greek mythology. 

I mean, the great hero Perseus was conceived when his mother Danae was impregnated by … Zeus, of course!! Zeus did a lot of that.

John Dickson
What about other virgin birth stories, uh, in other cultures? Um, Qi in, uh, in Chinese culture, uh, some traditions, referring to Zeus in that same way and so on. Um, so here we’ve just got another myth, right?

Amy Peeler
Ah, yes, that is another really important, uh, we do have some philosophers of the time saying, oh, well, the gods don’t have to have, you know, intercourse with a woman. They can kind of just breathe on the woman. And so there is some resonance there. But the difference, of course, is that we are within the purview of Judaism, which is doggedly committed to the fact that there is one God. I think in a system in which you have a plethora of gods or kind of divine emanations, well, here’s one more, uh, to the group.But Israel is willing to, um, be persecuted and give their lives at this point to say, there is only one God. And so for a writer like Luke, who knows that commitment to the sovereignty of God alone, the God of Israel: For him to say this, um, this overshadowing of God’s Holy Spirit happens to Mary, and then the child that within her is holy is son of God – not metaphorically, but literally – is a radically different kind of statement.

Clip – Jordan Peterson and Richard Dawkins

Studio – John Dickson

That’s a short clip from a long and rather fruitless debate between famed atheist and evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins and public intellectual Jordan Peterson. The debate happened only a few weeks back and you can hear Dawkins and the debate moderator Alex O’Connor trying to pin Peterson to answering what they think is a simple question: 

Did the virgin birth actually happen? 

Jordan Peterson’s eventual answer is: I don’t know. And mostly, the full hour-long debate is Dawkins and Peterson speaking at cross purposes. Peterson is more interested in values and metaphor. Dawkins only wants the material facts. 

Through the ages, there have been people who suggest that the Virgin Birth story in the gospels isn’t a physical truth, but a metaphor. But that’s not what the church has ever taught. 

READING 

We believe in one God,
  the Father almighty,
  maker of heaven and earth,
  of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
  the only Son of God,
  begotten from the Father before all ages,
      God from God,
      Light from Light,
      true God from true God,
  begotten, not made;
  of the same essence as the Father.
  Through him all things were made.
  For us and for our salvation
      he came down from heaven;
      he became incarnate by the Holy Spirit and the virgin Mary,
      and was made human.
      He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate;
      he suffered and was buried.
      The third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures.
      He ascended to heaven
      and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
      He will come again with glory
      to judge the living and the dead.
      His kingdom will never end

Studio – John Dickson

That’s a bit of the Nicene Creed, a statement of belief that acts as a kind of ‘minimum standard’ of Christian belief, accepted by Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant denominations. 

You’ll notice the mention of the virgin Mary, and the emphasis that Jesus Christ was begotten (not made) from the Father. 

I get why people think the whole thing is nuts! Biblical scholar and friend of the pod, Mike Bird, has written: “The notion that Jesus was born to a young Galilean girl who was still a virgin has proven to be one of the most objectionable and mocked beliefs of the Christian faith.” Dr Bird accepts the Virgin Birth. He just gets why people object to it.

Some have tried to explain away the Virgin Birth. 

Loads of people think it’s silly (a bit like the Resurrection, really). But, as Matt Milliner, makes clear, all brands of Christians affirm the Virgin Birth.

Matt Milliner
No… it is, you know, again, we can’t use this word anymore. It’s been ruined, but fundamentals fundamentalists, or these get a bad name, but, but the Protestant fundamentals were a list of doctrinal positions that I completely agree with. Fundamentalism. I am not one. I’m not a fundamentalist. But when you look at what got that name tag to it, the list of Protestant fundamentals, the resurrection of Jesus. Check, for me, the virgin birth. Check. In other words, to be Protestant is fundamentally to believe in the virgin birth, 

John Dickson
What do you say to, you know, friends who don’t believe in Christianity, when they say, oh, virgin birth, come on. It’s a scientific age, we can’t believe it.

Amy Peeler
Yes. And I appreciate that hesitancy. My response would be that this is radical and it is not…  In fact, it is not just one miracle that happens other times. This is in a class all by itself. And I recognize it’s difficult to assent to within the framework of science because this is singular. God, as John says, has come to dwell among us. And this is so powerful. I mean, it’s basic kind of Christianity, but it’s been so powerful to me. God could have left us alone. God could have saved us in any way because God is God. We can’t imagine all the ways that God could have saved us. But God said, you know, I want to be one of you, be among you. And the way that God chose for that to happen is through the son taking on human flesh from conception and pregnancy.

John Dickson: John presses that home, doesn’t he? Especially σάρξ  ἐγένετο  [sárx egéneto] – flesh became flesh … and flesh of course is the lowest – In Greek, the lowest of the sort of human forms, you go from spirit to soul to body to flesh.

Amy Peeler
That’s exactly right. It, it’s gritty, it’s messy, and God said, I will be within your mess, because from where you are. … And, and, and also, σάρξ  is created by God, so it’s good. I don’t want to say it’s all bad. But, uh, God said, I’m going to enter there. So, uh, Um, I understand the hesitancy, and this is why I think, well, for me, it’s been really fascinating. It would have been so much easier for Luke and Matthew just not to tell this story. Because it does beg these questions of, well, is this like the other things we see in the Greco Roman world, or this is really hard to believe. But they, I believe, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, said this story is worth telling. And so it is radical and provocative and hard, and yet there’s something true told to us about our identity as humans, our value as humans, and God’s identity. Who would be willing to take on flesh to save us?

John Dickson
So let’s move to the view that emerges in Christianity as a result of the incarnation, God becoming flesh. You write, I’m quoting you back at you, “God has decided that women’s bodies are deemed worthy to receive the ultimate expression of holiness, the very body of God.” and “The incarnation makes a radical affirmation concerning the female body’s proximity to holiness.” Unpack that. Tell us what new emphasis Christianity brought to this already positive view in Judaism.

Amy Peeler
Yes. And I really appreciate the way you’re asking the question. Because I want to be very careful never to make Christianity look better at the cost of making Judaism look bad. That is to saw off the branch upon which one stands. And so, this was this very, um, challenging for me to research and write well, and some of my Jewish friends might still disagree with me, and I welcome that kind of conversation. But I do believe that while there is an affirmation of humanity and the goodness of flesh, the goodness of women and birth, in the religious structures, and I think there are reasons why this makes sense, only men are able to come close to the place of God. This is the Levites, the priest. So it’s not all men. But the high priest who are going into those most holy spaces are men. Now, this could have been as simple as in an agricultural community, you kind of need the women having children and caring for children and the men did. So I don’t think the only conclusion should be some kind of misogynistic one. I do not think that is the best reading. And yet, there is a distinction here if we compare women’s access to holy spaces in the Judaism of the first century with what God does in the person of Mary. She is, in this time in which she is holding and nursing Jesus, a – she’s bleeding after pregnancy most likely if her pregnancy is, is a normal one. And Leviticus tells us that a woman is unclean – not bad, not morally failing, but simply unclean and could not go to the temple at that time. So it was radical to me. Um, it still remains one of the biggest lasting impacts of this research for me, that in that time in which she would have been considered unclean, God didn’t say, okay, you’re not really unclean. You can come to the temple anyway. God transgressed that boundary that God had established and said, I will come and dwell in and with and through you. And for me, and others might disagree, and that’s fine, I love to chat, but for me then that says something profound about how Christians think about access to holy spaces and holy things. And how the embodiment of men and women are welcomed in, uh, to handle the holy.

John Dickson
Not all Christian communities in the early centuries were totally cool with this … the yuckiness of bodily flesh and bleeding and all that. Tell us about some of those groups. I’m thinking of the, the Docetists, I’m thinking of Marcion. Tell us something about their approach.

Amy Peeler
Excellent. Well, I think you’ve already alluded to it, right? That cultural idea that the divine is removed from the mess. And in some ways that is a way of showing reverence, right? God’s holiness, distinctness. And so I think it’s a great example of how our cultural shaping, uh, will over time kind of maybe help us or make us step back from the provocative nature of Christian truth. So it’s understandable that people were saying, this is messy. You’re saying God had diapers and God had to drink milk from his mother? Ugh. Um, I think it also says, and many have written about this, kind of, Uh, some kind of like a special fear around the female body, and that’s a reality in, in many cultures of the Greek and Roman world. And so the Orthodox, as they are,  as Paul does, write about the scandal of the cross. Yes, we are claiming a God who bled and died as a traitor on a Roman cross. There is also a scandal of birth that they’re not willing to walk away from. And Irenaeus, Tertullian are adamant in that this messiness, this is who our God is. I mean, it is kind of a Philippians 2 kind of moment. The majesty of God is displayed in humility. And that is, we think about that quite a bit with the cross, but And we should also think about it with his existence as an infant, as a little baby.

John Dickson
We’ll probably, in the show, in the edit, get an actor to read out that amazing Tertullian response to the sort of Gnostic view. It is very powerful.

READING 

Come now, beginning from the nativity itself, declaim against the uncleanness of the generative elements within the womb, the filthy concretion of fluid and blood, of the growth of the flesh for nine months long out of that very mire. Describe the womb as it enlarges from day to day – heavy, troublesome, restless even in sleep, changeful in its feelings of dislike and desire. Inveigh now likewise against the shame itself of a woman in travail which, however, ought rather to be honoured in consideration of that peril, or to be held sacred in respect of (the mystery of) nature. Of course you are horrified also at the infant, which is shed into life with the embarrassments which accompany it from the womb; you likewise, of course, loathe it even after it is washed, when it is dressed out in its swaddling-clothes, graced with repeated anointing, smiled on with nurse’s fawns. This reverend course of nature, you, O Marcion, spit upon; and yet, in what way were you born? You detest a human being at his birth; then after what fashion do you love anybody? … Christ, at any rate, has loved even that man who was condensed in his mother’s womb amidst all its uncleannesses, even that man who was brought into life out of the said womb, even that man who was nursed amidst the nurse’s simpers. For his sake He came down (from heaven), for his sake He preached, for his sake He humbled Himself even unto death – the death of the cross. He loved, of course, the being whom He redeemed at so great a cost … Well, then, loving man He loved his nativity also, and his flesh as well. 

Tertullian, The Flesh of Christ, 2nd Century AD 

Studio – John Dickson

OK, so that’s the virgin birth. All brands of Christianity agree on that one.

But … for certain theological reasons, many argue that Mary stayed a virgin. She never had sex with Joseph. She never had sex with anyone. 

Yes, the NT says Jesus had brothers and sisters: Mark 6 tells us Jesus’ neighbours complained, “Isn’t this the carpenter? Isn’t this Mary’s son and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas and Simon? Aren’t his sisters here with us?” 

But in the history of the church, there have been different views of what this means. It’s true most secular and Protestant scholars read it as a plain reference to natural children born to Mary after Jesus. But there are other readings. These kids could be Joseph’s children from a previous marriage (the view of Epiphanius in the fourth century) or they could be Jesus’ cousins (a … possible … view proposed by the 5th century giant St Jerome).

Personally, I don’t think either of these alternatives is correct, but it’s worth noting that the great Protestant Reformers – Luther and Calvin – accepted Mary’s perpetual virginity. Luther was insistent on it. Calvin less so, but still accepting of it.

For Catholics, it is non-negotiable.

There’s another Catholic doctrine about Mary that’s worth raising: her own immaculate conception. Just like Jesus, she was born without sin!!

John Dickson
The early church began to, uh, talk about her as born without sin. The immaculate conception. That’s right. Uh, not to be confused with the virgin birth. Precisely. Um, and that she was a perpetual virgin. So, uh, she didn’t have, uh, relations with Joseph or any other children. Um, just putting you on the spot, what do you make of those things? Yeah,

Amy Peeler
Yes, I’ve read extensively, as much as I can, on this, and I do have deep respect for my Catholic friends or Orthodox friends who would assent to that. And I’ve tried to understand their reasons why. And from what I perceive, it is a powerful connection, especially back to the Old Testament. I mean, they will acknowledge this is never stated explicitly in the New, but it is a fitting doctrine. They will use the language of fittingness. If Mary is comparable to the Ark of the Covenant, right? That, that place where God’s Shekinah [kind of like divine presence] glory dwelt, it was set apart and made holy, and it stayed holy. And so if she bears in her body God, the Son of God, then wouldn’t it make sense that she too would remain set apart, committed to Him, and therefore not, uh, not the mother of other children, and that God – I’ve also really appreciated learning that there’s an emphasis from our Catholic and Orthodox friends on grace. We get grace and salvation. It’s just they believe that Mary got grace before she was conceived or at that point. And so that she was prepared for God’s holiness. The reason why I have, do not go that direction is that number one, I don’t think it’s demanded by scripture. And I think that it raises some questions about, well, sometimes it goes kind of in a negative way of a disparagement of human sexuality. I don’t think that’s necessary, but it does happen.

Studio – John Dickson

“Born without sin” can sometimes add to the perception that Christianity is anti-sex, or that all sexual intimacy is inherently bad. That’s not what Christianity teaches. 

Amy Peeler
But more important, it seems to me to take away from Jesus’s distinctness as the only human who is set apart as completely holy. And I think about Jesus’s interactions with other corrupt or sinful people, uh, all of his healings. He isn’t corrupted by their impurity, but his holiness radiates and changes. So it seems to me this could be the similar thing, that Mary is faithful but not perfect. And when God comes to dwell within her, that God’s holiness radiates through her, but that she still has to grow in faithfulness in her life. And that she’s not set apart from sin from the very beginning.

John Dickson
So you would, uh, think that the brothers and sisters of Jesus mentioned in the gospels are just natural brothers and sisters

Amy Peeler
I do. I think that is the most simple way to read. And that would have been the natural thing in a marriage between she and Joseph. So, um, I don’t, I don’t see that that takes away from her honor, if that’s the case.

Matt Milliner
I’m going to say something that’s going to sound shocking at first, and John is going to wonder, Matt, will you keep your job, okay? Here we go. Christians have to believe in the Immaculate Conception. It’s like, wait a second, OF JESUS! of Jesus. That’s the one we all agree upon. Without sin. Immacula. Immacula is spot. Spotless birth in the womb of the Virgin. So I wish we could all get around that and say, that we all agree upon. But the Immaculate Conception is a more tangential Parenthetical, almost, uh, sidelined, and again, I know to say sideline is a lot, but it’s a, it’s a almost tertiary in the sense of not even first or second importance, threefold importance. The idea that she was conceived without original sin in the womb of her mother, Anna, Jesus’s grandma. The idea … again, let’s, what’s its own internal reasoning? It’s very clear that Jesus needs a clean vessel to inhabit so that he would be clean. But last time I checked, when I read the New Testament, Jesus seems to go about the business of not saying, Oh, I can’t heal you. You’re a leper. I need a clean leopard. No, he goes around and heals these. So as far as I’m concerned, it seems to be a Uh, very reasonable and actually widely held Christian position to disagree with the Immaculate Conception of Mary. Even Thomas Aquinas and Bernadette of Clairvaux, the two great Catholic saints, they believed that Mary was conceived in sin and then was cleansed later on. At this point, a billion Christians in the world are tethered to this doctrine. So where I would go is I would say, Is it possible? Absolutely. If a student of mine comes to the conclusion, because we have a Virgin Mary class here, and I teach with Dr. Amy Peeler, we have a great time doing it. If a student comes to the conclusion that this is a demonic infiltration, I think they would be wrong. First of all, they’re also alienated from the majority of Christians on the planet. I think you should come to the conclusion, this is a perfectly possible articulation of Christian truth. But in my opinion, to insist that all Christians believe it, that is all Roman Catholics. And to raise it to the level of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and resurrection level of doctrine, which the Roman Catholic Church has done, has been a pretty serious breach of Christian unity. So that’s the immaculate conception of the Virgin Mary. One of those contentiousd octrines. I believe in its plausibility. I wouldn’t go so far as to say, I think it should be necessary for all Christians, which keeps me protestant.

John Dickson
But I like the way you’ve pointed out that, as, uh, with, um, the earlier point we made about Mary, it’s actually about Jesus.

Studio – John Dickson

We’ll be back after the break. 

CLIP: The Letdown

Studio – John Dickson
That’s a bit of the first episode of an Aussie tv show called The Letdown, from 2016 which you can watch on Netflix. It’s about becoming a new parent, and when it was first released mothers everywhere heralded it as one of the first accurate depictions of motherhood on screen.  

The New York Times called The Letdown part of a “mom-com cluster”, a combination of a workplace comedy with the workplace redistributed to the home, and a romantic comedy, but where the romance is maternal. 

“For a long time, TV seemed to think that having a baby was the kind of story arc that could be handled in an episode. That helpless, screaming, wetting, nipple-abrading bundle of joy wouldn’t really change the woman who birthed it.” 

Now, we’ve got several whole TV series about the reality of early motherhood, helping new mums feel more seen. 

Amy Peeler reckons Mary helps us to see not only motherhood in a different light, but the place of women in all of Christianity. 

John Dickson
Let’s turn to Mary as a mum. What kind of mother was she? I’m not asking you to be too speculative, but from the Gospels we have quite a few little incidents to draw on.

Amy Peeler
One of my favorite places to go for this is Matthew and if readers are familiar with Matthew’s account, initial response might be, really? Matthew doesn’t say much. Matthew spends more of his time focusing on Joseph and what an amazing man Joseph was to take on Mary’s potential, this challenging situation. But the only thing Matthew says about Mary is that she she gives birth to Jesus, she mothers him, and it struck me, and I was instructed really in reflections by my own teacher in seminary, Beverly Govinta, Mary’s motherhood is like the anchor for that story. If she wasn’t doing the mundane, faithful things of caring for that child, whatever Joseph or Herod or the Magi did, it just wouldn’t matter. She is the one whom God has entrusted to care for that child most immediately. And so she was a good mom. She swaddles him. I mean, Luke gives us that detail that we think about at Christmas. That’s a sign of care. So in some ways, not every act that she did was radical. She was raising Jesus. Um, and you see that especially in the account in which Jesus is twelve. He stays in the temple. She and Joseph go back and find him. And what I love about that passage is that in conclusion it says, “and Jesus went back with his parents”. He submitted to them. So from twelve until the time that he walks out and starts his ministry, Mary is influencing him. So yes, it’s her body and also her emotions and will and mind, she passes on to him and trains him in the faith. And I think the clearest place to see that is her Magnificat, which is evoking the promises of God, that God will do a radical thing in remaking the world. Echoes of that permeate Jesus’s own teaching. 

READING 

 And Mary said,

“My soul magnifies the Lord,

    and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,

for he has looked on the humble estate of his servant.
    For behold, from now on all generations will call me blessed;

for he who is mighty has done great things for me,
    and holy is his name.

And his mercy is for those who fear him
    from generation to generation.

He has shown strength with his arm;
    he has scattered the proud in the thoughts of their hearts;

he has brought down the mighty from their thrones
    and exalted those of humble estate;

he has filled the hungry with good things,
    and the rich he has sent away empty.

He has helped his servant Israel,
    in remembrance of his mercy,
as he spoke to our fathers,
    to Abraham and to his offspring forever.”

Studio – John Dickson

That’s Mary’s Magnificat, a hymn of praise from the Gospel of Luke, that Mary sings while she is pregnant. Dietrich Bonhoeffer, the German pastor and theologian executed by the Nazis, about whom we did a full episode earlier this season, called the Magnificat “the most passionate, the wildest, one might even say the most revolutionary, hymn ever sung”.

Every year there are many and varied claims about “the true meaning of Christmas” – from priests, politicians and advertisers. But according to Mary’s Magnificat, Christmas is about God turning things upside down, which is really the right way up.

God does this not from “on high” – with the power of Emperor Augustus and brutality of King Herod. That would just be more of the same, the Almighty playing the old human power game, only with more force. God achieves his purposes from below, in the humility of a manger, with lowly shepherds as first witnesses, with foreign magi as first worshippers, with a young woman as the hero and key interpreter of events.

Bonhoeffer goes on to say of Mary’s Magnificat:  

READING 

“This is not the gentle, tender, dreamy Mary whom we sometimes see in paintings; this is that passionate, surrendered, proud, enthusiastic Mary who speaks out here. This song has none of the sweet, nostalgic, or even playful tones of some of our Christmas carols. It is instead a hard, strong, inexorable song about collapsing thrones and humbled lords of this world, about the power of God and the powerlessness of humankind.”

John Dickson
The early church, pretty soon actually, began to call her Theotokos. Um, God Bearer or Mother of God. Can you tell us something about the history of the emergence of that title? What was behind wanting to call her that?

Amy Peeler
Yes, that comes in a council and I think that’s important to name, right? These are when the Christians are gathering together. So this isn’t kind of in one corner. 

Studio – John Dickson

An early fifth-century monk and church official named Nestorius denied that a human, a woman could really bear ‘God’ himself. He argued that Mary only gave birth to the ‘Christ’ – to the human nature of Jesus – not the divine nature of Jesus. He called Mary ‘Christotokos’ – Christ-bearer. 

The broader church said: no way! That little embryo in the womb was fully human AND fully God. We must therefore call Mary Theotokos: God-bearer.

This was ratified at the Council of Ephesus (where it met) in AD 431. Henceforth, Mary is the Mother of God. Nestorius was exiled to Egypt.

Amy Peeler
Everybody says in Ephesus 431 Theotokos. I’ve been so intrigued as I’ve learned to adopt this language, because it is the church’s language, that people kind of immediately, or some, some are like, wait, what do you mean? Like, God is eternal. God doesn’t have a mother. Oh, what a great set of questions. Let’s clarify. And the history is beautiful, because they were having discussions about who is Jesus, right? Incarnation is a big deal, as we’ve talked about. Never had happened before. It takes a lot of time to figure that out. So to say that Jesus, who walked around in Nazareth and Galilee, is God, that’s tough. And so the emphasis was, no, He really was God, from the beginning. So that title, Theotokos, God bearer, Yes, it is a way of showing appreciation and honor to Mary that God has honored her with, but it really is about who is Jesus? Is he just a nice human that God kind of says, Oh, you’re pretty cool. Let’s work together. Or is he truly God in the flesh? And if that is true, which that is Orthodox Christianity, then it is right  to call her Theotokos, because she does give birth to God.

John Dickson
I’m totally with you.

Studio – John Dickson

Okay, that’s Mary as ‘mother’ – it’s a big deal in the history of Christianity. But what about the other ways Mary is portrayed in our sources. 

John Dickson
She’s not just a mother. Um, the Gospels portray her in a range of ways. Tell us other sort of roles and functions that she has.

Amy Peeler
So I’ve mentioned one already. In the Magnificat, many interpreters have thought of her as a prophet. And prophets, that definition maybe is hard to nail down, but I think it would be fitting to say that prophets both look back, what has God done, and also look forward, what has God promised to do. And that’s exactly what the Magnificat is. I love reflecting on the fact that she initially sings out this song of praise with her friend, Elizabeth. And yet, because by the power of the Holy Spirit, Luke records those words, then they become part of our scriptures and they become part of the prayers of the church. Many churches sing her song or pray her words every evening. And so she is a prophet for us. We are instructed how to think of and praise God through her words. And then she’s a proclaimer as we move to that text in Acts where she’s praying with the other disciples, then the Holy Spirit comes. Peter says to those who are gathered, ‘Hey, what you’ve seen here today is a fulfillment of Joel. Sons and daughters are prophesying, male and female slaves are testifying.’ And I think that’s an indication to that crowd, you’ve heard both men and women tell this good news. And like the cherry on top of that argument for me is that that word ‘female slave’, doule, which is coming out of Joel’s prophecy, the only time Luke uses that word is for Mary. She calls herself God’s servant, God’s slave, in the Annunciation and says so again in the Magnificat. So I think Luke, as a very careful narrator, is saying, because he’s already named her once, the only woman who’s named in Acts 1. Yes, she’s here, uh, and she’s doing that work. And again, I, I mentioned, you know, there’s lots of reflections of her post life after that event, and I don’t count those as scripture, but there are so many of them that it is fascinating to me that, a lot of early Christians heard stories, or at least passed on stories, that Mary continued to be involved in the movement of her son. And it seems ludicrous to me that she wouldn’t, actually. She had been faithful, uh, from the beginning until the end, through the Pentecost. Uh, I don’t think she would just kind of turn it all in at that point. Uh, why would she not be involved in the movement? Jesus had entrusted her to the care of John, uh, the beloved disciple. And so it seems most plausible that she continues with the Christians until her own end.

John Dickson
We know nothing about her death, right?

Amy Peeler
We don’t officially or canonically, I should say. Um,

John Dickson
But what about historically? I mean, do you, do you lay any, uh, credibility in the sort of traditions that followed?

Amy Peeler
That’s a tricky, you know, as a New Testament, I, I co-teach a class on Mary with my dear friend Matt Milner, and he’s an art historian, and he just has so much more power for imagination than I do.I’m so kind of text and black and white. So I, I would love for you to ask him that question. Um, they’re quite fanciful, some of them, some of the apostles who even have been martyred kind of come back and, uh, you know, I think it’s a reflection in a poetic way of the power of the incarnation. I think Mary does end her life and she’s faithful. I think it’s very plausible that she spends time in Ephesus because that’s where John spends time and that provides a historical, fascinating reality, because if you have Artemis, who’s called the Queen of Heaven, very prominent in Ephesus, and then you have the Mother of God in Ephesus, well that’s an interesting showdown. But, but I think beyond that, I’m, as kind of a historian, a text scholar, she died, she was faithful, that’s about all I feel comfortable saying.

Studio – John Dickson

Here is the final Catholic Doctrine of Mary to discuss – ‘the assumption’, the belief that when Mary died, her body and soul were ‘assumed’ – taken –  immediately to heaven, to be with Jesus. 

Assumption Day is a celebration on the Catholic Calendar – August 15. It’s a public holiday in some countries – including France, despite France being a secular republic. 

There’s no mention of any of this in the New Testament itself. 

There’s a collection of stories called the Transitus Mariae – The Passage or passing of Mary – that suggest Mary died in the presence of Jesus’ apostles in Jerusalem and then her body just disappeared. The stories date from the 4th to the 6th centuries. 

Typically, Protestants don’t believe in the assumption of Mary. 

Catholics very much do! In fact, in 1950 Pope Pious the 12th declared the Assumption of Mary a true ‘dogma’. That makes it non-negotiable for Catholicism. 

I did what Amy told me to do: I asked Matt Milliner what he thought.

Matthew Milliner
And I love how William Tyndale, put it in one of his statements, the great reformer. He’s like, Hey, I mean, come on. It doesn’t say much about it in scripture. So this is not a doctrine upon which Christians should disagree over. You can believe it or you don’t have to. It’s not an essential, but again, in 1950, it becomes an essential. Now, when that happens, I think it’s interesting. And it’s one of those doctrines where I say, is it possible that after his resurrection from the dead, Jesus comes and takes her body with him. Certainly, I leave open the possibility of that. This is a body that obviously he reveres, it’s the body that he came from, just like I would revere my mother. And if I love my mother, right, how much more does the perfect human love his mother, right? So again, it strikes me as a playful possibility that, um, that actually increases my faith. And here’s the best part of it. Um, it is also about your and my death. It means that when I die, Jesus is going to be there for me as well. He’s going to be there at my funeral, taking my soul to him. I love the Orthodox icons of what they call, not the Assumption, but the Dormition. And if you just Google Dormition icon, you will find, Google image search it. It’s so beautiful. It shows Jesus at Mary’s funeral, and he is taking Mary’s soul, which symbolizes by a little baby. And so what that means is this, that the Christ child, Mary and Christ child icons have been flipped. And so all of a sudden, Jesus is holding mom instead of mom holding Jesus. Now, if you are shaped by the Protestant tradition as I am, maybe you think, huh, now that’s interesting, because now she is utterly dependent upon him as we all are. Bingo! Right now, the great Dormition icons are an image of everything is dependent upon Jesus, especially Mary. And if you’ve ever had to care for elderly parents, when that situation is reversed, where you’re caring for mom and dad as they once cared for you, you can relate.

CLIP – Hail Mary passes in the NFL

 

Studio – John Dickson

That’s a clip from just this season of the NFL, when the Washington Commanders beat the Chicago Bears on a 52-yard Hail Mary completion from the quarterback to the wide receiver. I apologise to my diehard Bears supporter friends. Jeff, I’m looking at you!!

 

Any excuse for an American football reference on Undeceptions–I’ve come to LOVE the game (but not the Bears). Go back to the second ever episode of Undeceptions to hear all about that: Football Free. Anyway, as you probably know the Hail Mary pass is a desperate play with little chance of success. It references the ‘Hail Mary’ prayer for strength and help. 

Here’s the prayer: 

READING

Hail Mary, full of grace 

The Lord is with thee. 

Blessed art thou amongst women, 

And blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus. 

Holy Mary, Mother of God, 

Pray for us sinners, 

Now and at the hour of our death. Amen. 

 

Studio – John Dickson

The first four lines are directly inspired by the Bible: “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee” is drawn from the angel Gabriel’s greeting in Luke 1:28, and “Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus” echoes Elizabeth’s words in Luke 1:42. 

These verses were often recited by ancient Christians as a way of honoring Mary and reflecting on God’s grace.

 

The last two lines—”Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death”—were gradually added over centuries. 

 

By about the 15th century, this petition was widely used in devotion. 

John Dickson
As the centuries roll on, Christians began to think that Mary could actually hear our prayers and, uh, put in a good word with Jesus for us and assist in redemption. Uh, tell us something about that.

Amy Peeler
Yes. So I think the negative reasons why that develops is actually it boils down to an inappropriate view of God. And that’s almost always the case, right? When we get our God ideas off, then our practices go wrong. So this idea of God is distant and only full of wrath. And then Jesus just becomes the judge and he will strike you down. And then it was kind of like, well, Mary seems nice. Like almost that gender dynamic of, well, I don’t ask dad for things, but mom usually is pretty soft. Um, there’s so many reasons why I don’t like that at all. Uh, but that’s kind of the path. So when there was a false or a limited picture of God. God has wrath. But God is also love. When there is only the focus on the wrath, then Mary became the easier person to go to. So that would be a negative trajectory. I think there’s a positive one. And this comes for me much more out of my work on Hebrews, where I spend a lot of my time. I think Hebrews teaches us that we are not totally separated from those Christians who have gone before, who have passed away. They witness us in our race of faith. We look back to their testimony. I’ve heard friends say that because of Christ’s resurrection, the veil of death, that which separates the living from the dead, Christ has made that thin. And so there is a communion of saints. And so I appreciate this pathway that would say, because Christ has defeated death, we have Christian friends that I would say, John, would you pray for me about this? We can also say to the church triumphant, the church who has passed members of the church, including Mary, Mary, would you pray for me? as we would ask any other friend. Now, I recognize not everyone wants to adopt that, but I’m just trying to say there are different reasons why that act could be motivated. Either really bad reasons, or potentially theologically and biblically sound ones. 

John Dickson
I mean, no Orthodox Catholic thinks you pray to Mary like you pray to God the Father. It’s like where I might say in old English, pray tell, you know, like it’s a, it’s begging someone. Yeah. Um, so yeah, I, I, I totally get that. Even though personally I could not possibly say a prayer to Mary because I just don’t think she’s omniscient.

Amy Peeler
Oh, yeah. That gets into another. Absolutely. Right, right. That’s a helpful point.

Studio – John Dickson

The point of this episode isn’t to pick fights with Catholic friends. And the truth is, the Catholic affirmation of all these things – Mary’s perpetual virginity, her assumption, even asking her to pray for us – is much older than the denial of these things. Tradition is on the side of the Catholic Church.

It really comes down to how much one reveres tradition. 

But the real point of this episode is to try and get to know Mary a little better.  

So after the break – we’ll explore how and why to do that.

CLIP – The First Noel 

Studio – John Dickson

Mary is remarkably absent from The First Noel, one of the favourite carols sung at Christmas time. Mary is actually surprisingly forgotten in a lot of the carols we typically sing. Away in a Manger? No Mary. Joy to the World? No Mary. 

In one study of 381 English-language Christmas Carols (religious ones … Jingle Bell rock doesn’t make the list), only 27 per cent mention Mary. 

Mary falls behind the angels and shepherds who are mentioned in 28 per cent of carols. But she’s ahead of the wise men, who only get a 13 percent look in. 

And the study further reported shepherds, angels and wise men are frequently mentioned in multiple verses of a carol. Where Mary appears, she gets a single, passing mention.

Christmas carols are obviously a dastardly Protestant plot to sideline Mary. 

Not really – but still, have we given Mary her due? 

John Dickson
Okay, let’s turn to our friends, the reformers.  I mean the um, the cliche, which is partly true, is that the reformers came along and Luther and Calvin stomped Mary on the head, chucked her out of church, ripped down the statues to Mary, and made the church pure again.

Amy Peeler
No,not at all. This has been wonderful to read and learn from those Reformation scholars. I mean, Luther had a robust bust Mariology, one that would not look that different to us than Catholicism, to be honest. Calvin too, deep appreciation. So as is true in many doctrines of the Reformation, the Reformers themselves are not wildly removed from Catholicism, but it’s only later generations. And so they did want to make sure that we were focused on the sole sufficiency of Christ. So that kind of negative trajectory, I’m not going to go to Jesus, I’m going to go to Mary, they would have rejected that. But because they’re committed to the incarnation, they knew you can’t get rid of Mary. And she … because God has honored her, so too should we. And so that was not a radical departure. It took place over time.

John Dickson
So when was Mary sidelined? Can you names and um, or at least name ideas that really have planted themselves in contemporary evangelicalism in a way that Luther, as you say, and Calvin wouldn’t recognize. 

Amy Peeler
Yes. It is the case, and this is true in any expression of Christianity, that there is agreed upon doctrine and then not all, we don’t all live out that doctrine perfectly all of the time. And so it is the case that in some expressions of lay Catholicism and lay orthodoxy, there is this over-emphasis on Mary. I’ve heard people say before, I don’t care that much about Jesus, but I really like Mary, and I know she would crave this because her desire as it was true of all the disciples was to point to the Lord, her Son. And so, there was a desire to resist that. And I think some pieces, too, arise in a bit of an individualism, right? Like, um, and this can be negative, I think, of like, I grew up very much, hey, it’s Jesus and me. And, and that’s awesome, that personal commitment. But sometimes that too can go off track and we, or at least I, forgot that there are a whole lot of other people. There’s lots of centuries. And so maybe some positive pieces of resisting that elevation of her to the devaluing of Jesus and maybe some negative pictures, uh, negative pieces of a bit too individualism. And, and there’s a lot of social pieces of, um, immigration or people coming in who are not Protestant and who are Catholic.

This is a complicated story such that we do end up now in places where Mary is, um… People are afraid to talk about her because they feel like if I start mentioning Mary, well, then we’re gonna start worshiping her and stop worshiping Jesus. And so, it’s okay to be afraid. But press into that fear by reading and conversation and learning. And you can start with scripture because that’s been, maybe one of the best parts of my life the last few years is to say, well, there’s not much about Mary in the Bible really, is there? But oh my goodness, when we ask, where is she? What is she doing? What does God want to communicate through her life? It is so rich that I could probably spend the rest of my life and I won’t get to the bottom of it.

John Dickson
Tell me what does a proper attitude to Mary give the Christian life?

Matthew Millner
President Reichen, our president here, who I, I love his preaching. He gave an Advent sermon once to the students called The First Christian. Talking about Mary as the first person to ascent to faith. Because it had to be a spiritual ascent as well, in her unique case, as a physical ascent, right? So all this to say, this idea that Mary encapsulates encapsulates the experience of faith. That goes back to what Luther and Karl Barth, these great Protestant theologians, have suggested. That you and I, when we receive Jesus into our hearts, is that language familiar to anybody? That is a fundamentally Marian reception. Behold the handmaiden of the Lord. Let it be unto me according to thy word. When Mary says that to Gabriel, and assents to the work of the Holy Spirit, that is no different than the sinner’s prayer that I prayed when I came to Christ at 15 years old. I said, okay, I have nothing, Jesus you have everything, I welcome you into my life. That’s the beauty and the intimacy of this faith of ours. So maybe, I think at the end of the day, all these doctrines aside, the things that we’ve discussed there, some of them I wouldn’t be willing to put aside. They’re important. But what we’re really talking about is the willingness to open ourselves in trust to our Heavenly Father who loves us. That’s a Marian ascent.

That’s the ascent of every Christian who has come to faith.

Amy Peeler
I think we’ve already named one of the most important pieces. Namely, that God chose to be one of us. And Mary is this undeniable signpost of the incarnation. I mean, we can’t even say the name Jesus without acknowledging her, because if she didn’t assent, then he wouldn’t have been born as Jesus of Nazareth. And so it is, focus on her is a way of reminding all of us, God loved us so much so as not to abandon us and to say, I want to dwell among you. So that, that’s one thing. And then my own particular work has been inviting fellow Christians to ask then the, the more a challenging question.  What does this mean for men and women? Because it is very sexed and gendered. We are talking about pregnancy. We are talking about a male saviour. And that can be scary, too, to have those conversations. But I believe the Word of God teaches us of the value of men and women in this picture. 

John Dickson
What would you say about Mary to the thoughtful critic listening to us who thinks Christianity is inherently misogynistic? What do you, like, genuinely think Mary brings?

Amy Peeler
Yes, and I love when such people are willing to voice that concern. And sometimes I will walk through different passages, here’s why I think this is not saying what it sounds like it says, I acknowledge it sounds harsh, but I always land on her. Because if Christianity was misogynistic, God would have chosen a different way to save the world. But God said, I will inhabit the body of a woman. I will be instructed by a woman. I will be proclaimed by a woman. They are good enough for me to be in, among, and work through.

John Dickson
And what about the listener who isn’t sure what to make of the Christian faith? They’re not especially skeptical, but they don’t, they don’t really get it. Can, can you tell us what helpful things do you think Mary teaches us about Christianity? How is Mary a window into the Christian faith?

Amy Peeler
I think what Mary shows us is that believing in the God and Father of Jesus Christ, assenting to the work of the Holy Spirit, is the most fulfilling expression of human life. I think many people today, especially young people, I see this because I work with them, they want something hard ask of them. They don’t just want kind of things catered to them and to feel good. They want to Demand. They want to rise to a demand. And her story has shown me that. Her agreement, her assent, I will be the mother of the society, that took incredible faith. And that was very self honoring. She said, yes, all generations will call me blessed. I mean, this is a woman that is confident. This is not some kind of wilting flower, right? She’s like, yes, um, God has honored me, and that is always going to be true. She is a no nonsense kind of gal. She is a no nonsense gal. And also, she struggles. She does this pondering. Her heart is, she watches her son being executed. What would that have been like? And she endures in faithfulness. So, to believe in God is costly and it’s worth it. And her story shows us that.

Undeceptions theme 

Studio – John Dickson

Merry Christmas! The Undeceptions team wishes all 

a happy and safe holiday season. 

 

Make sure you head to undeceptions.com to check out the extensive show notes Research Al has put together. And don’t forget to leave us a question—you can do it in text, but come on, leave us a voice record. We love your voice questions, and Producer Kaley may select you for our next Q&A episode. 

See ya…

Undeceptions is hosted by me, John Dickson, produced by Kaley Payne and directed by Mark Hadley. 

Alasdair Belling is a writer-researcher.

Siobhan McGuiness is our online librarian. 

Lyndie Leviston remains my wonderful assistant. 

 

Santino Dimarco is Chief Finance and Operations Consultant. 

Editing by Richard Hamwi.

Our voice actors today were Yannick Lawry and Dakotah Love.

Special thanks to our series sponsor Zondervan for making this Undeception possible. 

Undeceptions is the flagship podcast of Undeceptions.com – letting the truth out.