Due to software, not everything recorded in this transcript will be accurate
Social Capital
Andrew Leigh:
Very quick plug for street parties, John. They are so easy to organise. We say street parties, I don’t actually mean closing down the street. That bit turns out to be kind of complicated due to strange local council rules. But if you want to have your neighbours around for a barbecue in December, it is fiendishly straightforward to organise.
John Dickson:
Tell me how to do it.
Andrew Leigh:
We pull out last year’s invitation. I can send you the invitation if you like. Uh, we change, change the date. The magic acronym of BYO means we don’t have to buy food for the entire street. We let box it a couple of weeks beforehand, and then magically on the day the neighbors turn up and we spend two hours on a Saturday afternoon getting to know them. Now we really quite like our neighbors, but it would be worth doing even if we did tested our neighbors because as a, we, we live off the benefits of that street party for the rest of the year. Uh, we say good day to people in the street when we go away on holidays. Someone will bring in the bins or collect the mail. Uh, and as I said before, uh, if anyone walks out the front of our house wearing a balaclava, uh, it is a neighbor who’s been to the street party who’s much more likely to call the cops than someone who hasn’t.
Studio – John Dickson:
That’s Andrew Lee talking about his own street in Canberra, where he lives with his family as a Federal Member of Parliament and the Shadow Assistant Treasurer. He thinks Australia is disconnected, and he’s written a book about it called Disconnected. He spends a whole chapter outlining why the decline of religion is making social cohesion in Australia worse. And he also describes the benefits to society of having more religious believers. Now to be clear, Andrew says in his book that he’s an atheist. That made me want to speak to him all the more. He can’t sign on to the church’s theological views, but he can see the good that religion does in society. And he’s done a truckload of research to prove it. I’m John Dickson, and this is Undeceptions.
Undeceptions theme
Every week we’ll be exploring some aspect of life, faith, history, culture or ethics. That is either much misunderstood or mostly forgotten. With the help of people who know what they’re talking about, we’ll be trying to undeceive ourselves and let the truth
Andrew Leigh:
Social capital is the idea that the networks of trust and reciprocity that link us together have some inherent value. Economists have long recognized that physical capital like bridges, roads and cars has value. And in the 1960s we came to agree that human capital, the skills and education that we acquire also has an economic value. And then, in the beginning of the 21st century, came the idea of social capital. The notion that the networks themselves matter. Uh, that societies can do better when they’re, uh, interc better interconnected. And individuals are more likely to prosper, uh, when they have more ties to others.
Studio – John Dickson:
Andrew Leigh is pretty impressive. Professor at 36, PhD from Harvard University, a lawyer in one of London’s top law firms, associate for the then Australian High Court Justice Michael Kirby. Andrew also hosts his own podcast. The Good Life, where he interviews people on living a happy, healthy and ethical life. You should really check it out. I drove down to Canberra to talk to him and found him to be incredibly personable and really easy to talk with. For a nerd’s nerd, he was fab. It’s worth heading to his website, actually, just to see his chosen profile pic. A seemingly loving family photo. Until you spot his youngest boy off to the left looking super grumpy. It’s seriously cute. We’ll put a link in the show notes of this episode. Lee worked in Robert Putnam’s research team while working at Harvard. This is one of the big names in social capital research. It prompted Andrew to come back to Australia and figure out what’s going on. His book Disconnected took him 10 years to write because research on social capital in Australia isn’t easy to find.
Andrew Leigh:
Pretty much I found that the measures for Australia look to be on the wane. Whether it was church going or union membership, membership of the scouts, the guides, Rotary and Lions, political engagement, all of those things. seem to be on the wane in Australia.
Studio – John Dickson:
Hence the title, Disconnected. I asked him if this was just, uh, part of a desire to go back to a simpler time, you know, looking at the past with rose coloured glasses. You know, a time when there was no social media to distract us and so on. But Andrew said nup. There’s hard data to underline the fact that civic connectedness
Andrew Leigh:
So we know people who are more socially connected tend to be healthier. It’s been suggested that complete social isolation can be as bad as being a chronic smoker or a chronic drinker for your health. We also know that we’ve seen significant declines in a whole range of metrics. One of the ones that worries me is we surveyed Australians on the number of friends and neighbours that they’re close to. And estimated that from 1984 through to 2018, where we’ve just updated the survey, the average Australian had shared two or three neighbours who they knew well, and five to six close friends. So we’d seen this complete collapse in informal socialising, which I think not only has economic consequences, but also means we’re missing out on one of the wonderful aspects of life. Social capital makes economies work better. Uh, if I don’t trust you at all, it’s very hard for the two of us to do commerce together. Uh, John, you think about all the ways in which I might diddle you, and I’m constantly thinking of all the ways in which you might rip me off. We have to write a tremendously complicated contract. Whereas if we trust one another, we can do commerce by a handshake. Uh, at a, uh, local level, Social capital means that, uh, organisations function more effectively, more people on the PNC helps the school prosper, and at an even more local level, knowing people on your street means that if someone, a stranger is seen carrying your television out the front door, your neighbour is more likely to stop, uh, than if they have no idea of your name, uh, and couldn’t tell you from a bar of soap.
John Dickson:
There’s a really substantial chapter on religion and social capital, uh, and you begin, I don’t know if I detected nervously, but you, you begin the chapter by sort of saying, you know, you, you like the new atheist, uh, outlook on science and rationality. Uh, I bristled a little bit at that, but, uh, but then you, you, you sort of said there is a perception amongst that set, not you, but that set. That, um, religion poisons everything. Just before we get into the details of that, where does that perception, do you think, come from?
Andrew Leigh:
Well, I think there’s many people who look at religion purely theologically, uh, and feel that they’re not able to accept the, the belief, beliefs in, in certain religious texts, uh, and therefore, uh, reject, uh, not just the books, but the community that is built around, around those, those key books. Uh, there’s people who argue that, uh, religious violence has, uh, has, uh, harmed more people. than religious altruism has helped. I think empirically that’s incorrect, uh, but certainly we’ve he the world has seen significant outbreaks of religious violence at certain moments in history. You just need to think about, uh, the, uh, the history of, of Northern Ireland or of Iraq, uh, to see instances in which religion has, has caused, uh, mayhem at certain moments in history. So I think that’s the kind of critique that people are coming to religion with. But missing the fact that Traditionally, those who have gone to church have been more likely to volunteer in their local communities, even putting aside their religious volunteering. More likely to donate money, even putting aside their religious giving. Churchgoers, for example, are more likely to donate blood, a fact that Robert Putnam uncovers in his terrific book, American Grace. Putnam sums it up by saying that religious people are just nicer. Not because they’re congenitally nicer, they weren’t nicer before they turned up at the church, or the synagogue, or the mosque. But being there puts them in a milieu in which people ask them to help out and in which they become more involved in their community.
Director Mark:
Hello, hi. Good, thank you. Um, I’m here to give blood.
Worker: Yes, and what’s your name?
Director Mark:
My name’s Mark Hadley.
Worker:
This will be your first time donation?
Director Mark:
Ever? Yes, yes.
Studio – John Dickson:
It turns out producer Kaley and I can’t give blood right now. One of us is pregnant, and the other travels to too many exotic countries. So, we used Andrew’s statistics about Christians being more likely to give blood to bully Director Mark into doing it for us, I mean for others, which is really good because he’s normally a blood sucker.
Worker:
Basically, while you’re on the couch, we want you to do some exercises. It’s basically crossing and uncrossing your legs at the ankles, can you see?
Director Mark:
Yeah, I can see. You want me to cross my legs every now and again?
Worker:
Yeah, basically do that for about every five seconds, hold for five seconds with your legs crossed. Yeah. And then relax. Yeah. Do a little bit of a point in your toes like a ballet dancer. I can do that. And sit and pull up.
Director Mark:
Yeah.
Worker:
Give your bum cheeks a little squeeze. And it just helps everything go around.
Director Mark:
So, um, cross legs, point toes, squeeze bum. That’s it. Gotcha.
Worker:
Basically keeps everything just moving about. Okay. So just get ready for that needle to come in now. Okay.
Director Mark:
Good lord, there it goes. Right, okay, I think I’ll just look over here for a bit. Yeah, so what could possibly go wrong?
So, we’ve come to the end of the donating process, but now I’m going to sit still, because I, I have done a very good thing, and have depleted my body, uh, and must allow it to recover. And so Brenda, who, um, has just been a nurse for thirty years, she was telling me, told me I did very well. So I feel some sense of accomplishment there. And, uh, now I’m just gonna relax until it’s time for me to have my milkshake. All sorts of other snacks are awaiting me. Actually, the thing I’m really, really looking forward to, strangely, is the next time. I kind of think this could be a fun thing to get into. It’s kind of a really nice Club of people here.
Studio – John Dickson:
Wouldn’t it be great if all the people listening to this podcast went and gave blood? It really does save lives. So a quick plug, head to donateblood. com. au, donateblood. com. au to find out how you can donate, just like Director Mark. We’re going to leave Mark there with his milkshake and bonnocks and a lie down and get back into our statistics with Andrew Leigh.From Andrew’s research, churchgoers are 16 percentage points more likely to have been involved.
Andrew Leigh:
Well, we’re simply looking there at the correlations between the, uh, the activities. One of the striking things is this doesn’t seem to do with, have to do with how fervent your beliefs are. So we don’t see a greater level of civic activity, uh, in those who hew more closely to the theological beliefs of their, their particular religion. Um, those who are only weekly attached to the theology, but who attend regularly, are much more likely to be involved in the community. Uh, and indeed Putnam goes further with the thought experiment, uh, that were an atheist to attend, uh, attend church on a weekly basis. Uh, they would probably get all of the community benefits, uh, that come with, come with church going. Uh, it’s not in the theology, it’s in the community.
Studio – John Dickson:
I must admit, this is one point where I have a gentle disagreement with Andrew. The fact that atheists also benefit when they come into a church community doesn’t negate the fact that it’s the ideas at the heart of Christianity that lift the whole community above itself, even those who don’t. Believe in those things. Can we even imagine the communities and activities of church life continuing to exist without their beliefs in God’s love, the centrality of love for one another, and so on? So I’m not sure it’s possible to say that it’s not, at least in some part, the ideas, the theology that’s having these effects. Apart from all that, it’s important to emphasize here that when Andrew’s talking about churchgoers being more likely to volunteer, or being more active in their communities, he doesn’t just mean within the church community. We’re not talking about volunteering for the flower committee or playing guitar up front on Sunday mornings. They’re out there in the world volunteering.
Andrew Leigh:
I think of my, uh, my local Hackett Church, which is a, uh, fascinating, uh, church because it is, uh, the combination of two denominations. There’s, uh, there’s an Anglican and a Uniting Church that share the same space of worship. Uh, and together they also have a range of social activities. So, uh, they organize, uh, toy library, um, that where low income families can come and borrow, uh, borrow toys. Uh, they have a tucker box, a food bank that’s offered, offered every, uh, Saturday. Uh, they run a facility, an assisted living facility for people with intellectual disabilities. Um, Kippax Uniting Church here in Canberra, uh, is one of the most impressive, uh, organisations in the city for distributing, uh, food hampers at Christmas and providing social services, uh, for new mums through programs such as NewPin. Uh, I’ll occasionally joke to them that they’re a large social service agency with a small religious chapter attached to the side of it. Um, but of course, That social service activity wouldn’t happen without the religious glue to hold it together.
John Dickson:
We sometimes hear that churches are holy huddles, homogeneous units fenced off from the nasty world.
Andrew Leigh:
I love that phrase.
John Dickson:
But the, uh, but the data suggests otherwise. How so?
Andrew Leigh:
People who attend church are more likely to know somebody who’s on welfare and more likely to know a CEO. in Australia have done a terrific job of cross cutting class differences. Possibly not so, so good a job at cross cutting racial differences, uh, but still pretty effective at bringing together people who would not otherwise rub shoulders in the streets. Putnam refers to two kinds of social capital, bridging and bonding. Bonding is social capital, uh, with people who are like you on many dimensions. Bridging is to, to spend time with somebody who’s different from you. And churches can be very effective. in that bridging social capital sense. Uh, which is important then when we go and generalize that in our broader life. Uh, so if you’ve, uh, you’ve just taken communion next to somebody who’s unemployed, it’s far less likely you will go out into the world and stigmatize or demonize somebody who’s jobless and say, well, the only reason somebody be out, be without a job is if they’re a, a worthless drag on society. Uh, it’s much more likely that you’ll see them as a fellow human being. Uh, and you’ll build those connections. Much more likely, you won’t just turn up your nose the next time you pass a homeless person, uh, but might stop and sit down with them and find out how you can help.
John Dickson:
In Disconnected, Andrew offers 10 ideas to boost social capital. These are tips for individuals like you and me to do as soon as we close the book. Hold a street party is one of them. And I actually went home and talked to my wife about hosting one in the new street we’ve just moved into. I’ll give you an update on that closer to Chrissy. Contact two politicians is another tip. Not to berate them, they’re people just like us, right? But contact them when you want to say you like something they’ve done. This might be cheeky, Andrew, but, uh, given all that you say, uh, In your 10 tips for boosting social capital in the book, why isn’t go to church one of them?
Andrew Leigh:
Perhaps it should be. My wife and I both grew up in religious households, and we make our way down to church a few times a year. But every time we do, we find this interesting thing, John. We find that our three little boys have walked out of church a little bit nicer than when they came in. Uh, they haven’t always loved every aspect of the sermon, they haven’t always loved having to sit still, uh, but taking a little bit of time to think about others, to go through those sort of basic truths of life is important. I’ve always quite liked the Alain de Botton approach of, uh, of saying that, uh, modern philosophy is all about
Studio – John Dickson:
Alain de Botton is a British philosopher who’s written a book called Religion for Atheists. It’s essentially a non believer’s guide to the uses of religion, which also recognises that religions have a peculiar capacity for community building.
Andrew Leigh:
But so much of listening to a good sermon, uh, is just hearing basic truths, which are Uh, simple to explain, but hard to live. Um, be nice to your sp a spouse. Be generous to your, to your children. Recognize that we’re all pretty fall fallible, uh, but that if we keep on, keep on trying, we’ll get better. Uh, I interviewed, uh, uh, Lala Slavin and, uh, her husband, rabbi Dovid Slavin, uh, who run our big kitchen in Bondi this week. Uh, and I was, I was just struck by there. Extraordinary earnestness about helping others. They really do feel they’ve been put on the earth in order to make a difference. Doing things like bringing together Jewish and Muslim kids to cook a meal, providing food for vulnerable groups around Sydney, and also just creating a community through the lens of food. And it’s hard to be around people like that and not be uplifted by the power of humanity to make a positive difference.
Studio – John Dickson:
I’m really enjoying my conversation with Andrew Leigh and it all sounds pretty good for Christians, right? You know, they’re pretty useful bunch, but Andrew’s not under any illusions and nor am I there’s plenty of dud stuff That Christians have done through the years there are many questions that need to be raised about the value of churches in contemporary society and Stuff like should they pay tax in what sense should they be regarded as? I mean, think of the horrendous child sex abuse scandals and the cover ups that followed. After the break, we tackle all that stuff.
Break
I’ve travelled to Canberra to have a chat with Federal Member of Parliament Andrew Lee, who’s written a book called Disconnected that has long intrigued me with its incredibly positive take on religion’s role in society. But now it’s time to ask some of the harder questions. Despite all the good Andrew reckons churches and other religious institutions do, is that enough to justify the benefits and special position under the law that many churches have?
John Dickson:
You’re the Shadow Assistant Minister for Charities. Can you give me a working definition of charity in the Australian context?
Andrew Leigh:
So a charity is, uh, an organization set up to help others rather than to make a, make a profit. Um, they can have various sort of, uh, structures, whether that’s an incorporated and unincorporated structure. Uh, and, uh, in many cases they’ll have, uh, tax deductible gift recipient status, which means people can give, give money and they don’t get taxed on those dollars, so effectively the taxpayer’s helping them out.
Studio – John Dickson:
The category of charity, though, includes far more than what people normally think of as. You know, welfare and that sort of thing. It even includes one of the subheadings is advancing public debate to, uh, to oppose or promote a law. Uh, so what’s the logic of including something like that as a charity?
Andrew Leigh:
Well, there’s a great, uh, virtue in a democracy like ours in having organisations that are, uh, championing democratic change. Uh, what we want is, uh, is people who are banding together for a common cause, uh, not to take up arms against the state, uh, but to look at persuading their fellow citizens and their legislators to make change. You think about campaigns like the Every Australian Counts campaign that led to the creation of the National Disability Insurance Scheme. Uh, an extraordinary Uh, grassroots campaign, uh, that brought together, uh, many disparate causes, different, uh, groups of, uh, people with intellectual and physical, physical disabilities, a whole, a whole lot of different kinds, uh, united in the notion that Australia could do better than the patchwork of, uh, of, of supports we provided to people with disabilities. Uh, a campaign like that changes the place for the better, uh, and should have taxable, tax deductible gift recipient status. We see a lot of this in fostering stronger community conversations. Um, so for example, we’ve got the religious freedom debate at the moment. Uh, we had a debate over same, same sex marriage, which, uh, many religious groups were involved in. Both in favour and against, uh, and so to the extent that those religious groups can be part of a public conversation, I think that’s a healthy thing. Which is important.
John Dickson:
Advancing religion is considered another charitable purpose under Australian law. Religious congregations, religious education bodies and so on fall under this category. Now I’ve heard it asked many times. In this day and age, why in the world should religion, which an increasing number of Australians just disagree with?
Andrew Leigh:
I think for many of the reasons we’ve talked about before, the notion that in the main, attending a temple or a mosque or a synagogue or a church does appear to have positive benefits for the society as a whole. It’s a moment in which people look to the Beyond their own immediate needs, uh, and think about how they can, uh, can assist others. Uh, and in so doing, tend to reach out to the, uh, to the broader community. So I think about the Gungahlin Mosque, which is just around the corner from here. Uh, and the work that they do in engaging, uh, with local community, uh, community support activities. Uh, they’re very good in getting out to the local, local community. Uh, and they’ve always Uh, worship with food, uh, and re recognize the value of providing, uh, that food to, uh, to other, uh, other people who are in need. Um, so there’s a lot of good altruism going on, uh, right across different religious groups.
John Dickson:
I’ve come across quite a few people who are calling for churches and of course, synagogues and so on to lose their tax concessions and be taxed. They earn money, so why shouldn’t they be taxed? How likely is that as a proposal and what would be your response to it?
Andrew Leigh:
Look, I think it comes up perennially. It certainly was an issue that arose when many people were angry about certain Religious groups not signing up to, uh, uh, the recommendations of the Royal Commission against child sex abuse and the compensation scheme that flowed out of that.
Anne Robinson:
Look, it’s a good question. What taxes do churches pay?
Studio – John Dickson:
That’s Anne Robinson, an expert in charity law.
Anne Robinson:
So when people ask that question, they often really mean, um, what income tax do churches pay? Do they pay income tax? And the answer to that question is fairly simple, and it is no, they do not pay income tax. income tax, um, but that’s not special treatment. Um, they are registered charities in Australia. Even if churches were not registered charities, they would be, they wouldn’t pay tax because of this principle of mutuality, which means if you and I pay personal tax, And we get together for a common purpose, that is public benefiting. We don’t pay tax again, because we’ve already paid tax. That’s the logic. So, if, even if churches didn’t have a tax exemption, when they came together, they would not pay income tax on what they collect to run the church. Different question whether churches should pay or do pay. Income tax on, say, property investments, um, in Australia because they are registered charities. They don’t pay income tax on investments. And that’s usually what people feel is a bit sensitive.
Studio – John Dickson:
Anne says there is a whole range of concessions for churches and religious institutions in the tax system at the federal, state and local level. They include a concession on fringe benefits tax for religious practitioners like ministers. And also at a state level, they’re exempt from things like payroll tax. But churches don’t get an across the board exemption on say stamp duty. The only exemptions are for church buildings that are used for educational or benevolent purposes, not for. worship buildings. Every state is a bit different on this, so it’s complicated and detailed. Which I guess is why there is so much misunderstanding about what taxes churches do and don’t pay. The main thing is, yes, churches do receive tax concessions in a variety of places, just not everywhere. And Andrew argues that where those concessions are applicable for churches,
Andrew Leigh:
Tax concession has been there for a long time and I think serves an important social purpose. Just as I think religious organisations serve that local purpose in our community. Now, most Australians won’t share the theological views. of most organizations. These religious organizations, after all, have theological views that are generally in direct contradiction with one another. But that doesn’t mean that we can’t see society as being richer for having their involvement in our community life, just as we see society for being better off for having multiple political parties. And the greatest challenge to Australia right now, John, is that we disappear into the corners of the ideological debate. That we don’t have a common conversation about the challenges of homelessness, joblessness, inequality, climate change, but instead we’re in our little echo chambers. The great thing about religious organisations is they do act as more effective melting pots, and that’s a, that’s a vital role, uh, in a very polarised politics that we have at the moment.
Studio – John Dickson:
Andrew ends his book with a suggestion to try a new activity, like lawn bowls, uh, meet people and learn something new. New activities and provocative conversations, he says, help the brain stay supple. And he even says you might perhaps consider joining a church. Imagine that. Though Andrew puts church in the same list to consider as joining a political party or a union. Which, considering Andrew’s a labour man, is a pretty high compliment. Hey, you can press pause. I’ve got a five minute Jesus. According to Jesus, love was to overrule our petty prejudices and inspire heroic acts of compassion, whatever the inconvenience. These themes come together in what is perhaps Jesus most famous parable, the now proverbial 3 5 9 Good Samaritan, in which a needy individual, half dead on the road, is overlooked by two of Israel’s leaders, a priest and a Levite, but cared for by a non Israelite Samaritan. The parable is found only in Luke, but it’s not his own creation, in the opinion of most scholars. It comes from his unique source, known as Genesis. Before I quote the parable itself, let me highlight three historical things that help the story come to life from its original context. First, the priest and Levite introduced to us in the parable were privileged members of Jewish society with special responsibilities in the temple. A statement in the Mishnah, the second holy book of Judaism, puts it like this, A priest takes precedence over a priest. over a Levite. A Levite over an Israelite. Both priests and Levites had really high social standing and were usually pretty well off. The second historical thing is that in ancient Judaism, touching a dead body Was believed to defile you. It made you ritually, unclean, and therefore unable to enjoy God’s presence. This was a particular concern for priests and Levites, of course, because they had to go into the temple and you couldn’t go into the temple if you were ritually unclean. Now here’s the thing. The fact that the injured man in the parable is left half dead, that’s Hemi. Half dead means that there’s a potential for defilement from these characters in the story. The third thing to hold in mind is that Samaritans, who lived in a discreet region just north of Jerusalem called Samaria, shared some heritage with Israel, but were hated by first century Jews as heretics and half breeds. And the feeling was mutual. A classic example of the hostility between Jews and Samaritans can be seen in an incident reported by the first century Jewish writer, Josephus. It had been a custom in Jerusalem at the start of the annual Passover festival to throw open the gates of the temple at midnight so that eager pilgrims could start filing into the National Shrine in preparation for the coming day’s service. It’s like, Opening the gates of a football match early. On one of these occasions, Josephus tells us, some Samaritans snuck into the temple area undetected. They would have been killed on the spot had they been detected. And began, quote, to scatter human bones in the portigos and throughout the temple, thus defiling the place. This was such a scandal when people discovered it that new security measures around the temple had to be brought in immediately following this. Now, the incident occurred when Jesus was a teenager, so it’s well within the living memory of everyone in Jesus original audience for the parable of the Good Samaritan. Now, to the parable itself. According to Luke, A religious scholar had just asked Jesus, Who is my neighbor? In the biblical commandment, Love your neighbor as yourself. The parable is Jesus answer to this question. Here’s producer Kayleigh.
Producer Kaley:
A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him, and went away, leaving him half dead. A priest happened to be going down the same road. And when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. So too a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan, as he travelled, came where the man was, and when he saw him, he took pity on him. He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn, and took care of him. The next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper. Look after him, he said, and when I return I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have. Jesus concluded, Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?
Studio – John Dickson:
Making a Samaritan the hero of the parable was a pretty daring thing to do, and it added to the inherent critique in Jesus teaching. He’s saying that religion can sometimes be a hindrance to universal love, and if that sounds particularly modern, that’s only because Jesus’ teaching here has massively influenced our own outlook, whether we’re religious or a secular humanist. All of this makes really odd, the claim of Richard Dawkins in the God delusion, that Jesus never implied that love should be shown across racial or religious boundaries. In that book, he says Jesus was a devotee of the same in-group morality. Coupled with outgroup hostility that was taken for granted in the Old Testament. This will come as a great surprise to anyone who’s done some reading in the scholarship about the historical Jesus, or even read the Gospels for themselves. I once had the privilege of interviewing Gezer Vermes, the leading Jewish scholar of the last generation. Uh, he was a professor of Jewish studies at Oxford. And, uh, actually, Director Mark was with me when we did this, am I not right? Yeah. And we walked around the gardens of that beautiful center for Jewish studies. And
Director Mark:
And his incredibly impressive study.
Studio – John Dickson:
Absolutely. Gorgeous man. Anyway, I was there to interview him about the origins. of the love command in Judaism and in Jesus, and it was extraordinary. He, uh, led us through the gardens, talked to us. Then we went into his study and we had this, uh, long discussion about love and he read us from the original Hebrew command, you know, to love your neighbor as yourself. Anyway, he said to me, now, John, you know that Jesus got his emphasis on love. From the Hebrew Bible, you know that don’t you? I said, yes, Professor Vimesh, you know, absolutely I’ve read that Bible and I’ve read your writings. I know that and then he said but Jesus Radicalized it so that now love of neighbor crossed So that it was love of leper, love of Samaritan, love of sinner, love even of enemy, he said. It was very confronting to be reminded by the preeminent Jewish scholar in the world of just how radical Jesus teaching in the peril of the Good Samaritan was really was. You can press play now.
Undeceptions theme
Andrew Leigh thinks Australia is disconnected, and he’s written a book about it. In Disconnected, Andrew spends a whole chapter outlining why the decline of religion is making social cohesion worse, and the benefits to society of having more religious believers.
To be clear, Andrew says in his book that he’s an atheist. That made John Dickson want to speak to him more. While Andrew can’t sign on to the churches’ theological views, he can see the good that religion does in society, and he’s done a bucket load of research to prove it.
Links related to this episode:
- Listen to Andrew Leigh’s podcast The Good Life.
- A social capital primer from social capital expert Robert Putnam.
- Check out the photo of Andrew and his family that John mentions in the episode.
- Get Andrew’s book, Disconnected.
- Check out some of Robert Putnam’s books, also mentioned in this episode: American Grace (2012); Better Together (2004)

“I just had a cracking conversation with Australia’s ‘social capital’ expert Dr Andrew Leigh, the Member for Fenner and Shadow Assistant Minister for Charities. We explored the sad decline of community connectedness in Australia, the remarkable effect church attendance has on volunteering and philanthropy in this country (for secular as well as religious causes), the logic of seeing ‘advancing religion’ as a genuine charitable cause, and the importance of street parties for your neighbourhood!” — John Dickson
More on Andrew’s updated research on Australia’s social connections:
- Read the Sydney Morning Herald article that outlines more of Andrew’s research: “Loneliness is a problem we can only tackle together.”
- Organise a street party! Here’s some tips from Andrew Leigh, including a template invitation.
- Neighbour Day — it’s a thing. Relationships Australia is encouraging people to get together with their neighbours on Neighbour Day, which they have declared as Sunday 29 March 2020. There’s a bunch of resources to help you get started connecting with your neighbours, here.
- Why not consider giving blood. Find out how (it’s really easy … and remember the snacks!) here.
- Read Alain De Botton’s Religion for Atheists
- Read this article from Centre For Public Christianity’s Natasha Moore about churches and tax exemptions (which also gives a shout out to our ‘phone a friend’ guest this episode, Anne Robinson).
- Meet Anne Robinson, who gave us a rundown on churches and tax.
- Curious about charities and the category of ‘Advancing religion’. Head to the ACNC website to find out more.
- Read the parable of The Good Samaritan.
Get to know our guest

Andrew Leigh is the Shadow Assistant Treasurer and Federal Member for Fenner in the ACT. Prior to being elected in 2010, Andrew was a professor of economics at the Australian National University. He holds a PhD in Public Policy from Harvard and is a Fellow of the Australian Academy of Social Sciences. His books include Disconnected (2010), Battlers and Billionaires (2013), The Economics of Just About Everything (2014), The Luck of Politics (2015), Choosing Openness: Why Global Engagement is Best for Australia (2017) and Randomistas: How Radical Researchers Changed Our World (2018). Andrew is a keen marathon runner, and hosts a podcast titled “The Good Life: Andrew Leigh in Conversation”, which is available on Apple Podcasts.

