Into Wine

Please note that due to software, not all sentences in this transcript will be accurate

WARNING

Hey everyone, John Dickson here. This episode is about alcohol. Specifically, we’re talking about wine … through history and in the Bible … and how to drink well. So, if you’re on a journey with sobriety, you should feel free to skip this episode – we have 150 others to choose from! Stay safe!

Clip – Black Books

Studio – John Dickson
That’s a clip from the British comedy Black Books! There you’ve Bill Bailey and Dylan Moran playing the dumb-and-dumber duo of Bernard and Manny, who realise they’ve accidentally drunk some very important wine while house-sitting for a friend. But there’s a solution.

Clip – Black Books

Studio – John Dickson
Wine “actually doesn’t have a taste” – That will be sacrilege to the ears of some, including our guest today. She reckons wine is a precious gift from the Creator! Wine is the second most-mentioned liquid in the Bible–behind water, of course. But if we’re talking only about liquids you drink—because, of course, water in the Bible is washed in, crossed over, and even walked on once—it turns out … wine is no.1. In fact, wine appears more than 200 times in the Bible — 30 in the NT and 180 in the OT. Almost all of them are positive references—not critiques. Anyone who knows their Gospels knows that Jesus drank wine—on one occasion he becomes the vintner, the wine-maker. And it’s the best wine, we’re told! Jesus was, in fact, so publicly associated with wine that he was falsely accused by his critics as a “drunkard”. I don’t for a moment think Jesus was a drunkard, but the criticism makes no sense if Jesus wasn’t known as someone who enjoyed drinking wine with his friends. Christianity has a long, rich history with wine So – charge your glasses – or don’t – everyone’s welcome here.  I’m John Dickson, and this is Undeceptions.

John Dickson
Your book is amazing. Wow. Everyone has to read this,

Gisela Kreglinger
Oh, well, thank you. 

John Dickson:
Well, I’m sure we’re recording already. Um, uh, so I might just dive into the interview and, you know, if there’s anything You don’t like about my questions.

Studio – John Dickson
That’s Gisela Kreglinger. She’s a former vintner, who now works as a theologian and author, with a focus on theological engagement with culture and the arts. She also holds a PhD in historical theology from the prestigious St Andrews University, in Scotland, where Prince William, future king of England went–and where he met his wife Kate. Anyway, you’ll soon hear that Gisela is deeply passionate about wine. She even runs wine tours to the Burgundy region of France and the Franconia region of Germany – two of Europe’s best wine countries! We’ll put a link to her website, which has all the details, in the show notes – and while you’re at it, make sure you pre-order her new book Cup Overflowing: Wine’s Place in Faith, Feasting, and Fellowship. It’s a cracker! 

John Dickson:
Can you, can you, can you tell me a red and a white that you think is generally reliable?

Gisela Kreglinger:
Well, I think for reds, I would, um, maybe, um, recommend a Cabernet Sauvignon that has a significant amount of fruit. And so people find it easy to do. Maybe discover some fruit and maybe some of the tannins, which is sort of a peccary sensations on the tongue and has quite a bit of alcohol. So it’s quite sort of, you know, like a strong, rustic personality coming to you.

John Dickson:
A big Aussie Barossa

Gisela Kreglinger:
Absolutely. Absolutely. Quite, quite, quite, quite out there in your face, luring you into the world of wine or, you know, um, uh, a wine that I really like is, um, a German Riesling that has more fruit. And more floral notes. And again, it’s quite easy to detect, um, especially the fruit and floral. It’s very enticing. And, um, some people like the sweetness of a wine, you know, sweet wines have gotten into disrepute, but some of the most beautiful wines of the world are German Rieslings. And there’s a lot of complexity, um, with the fruit and the floral notes. That, um, is an easy way into the world of wine for those who don’t like sort of the drier and more rustic wines. So let Lady Riesling entice you into her dance of being in the meadows, in the fruit orchards, and let the wafts come your way and be enchanted.

John Dickson:
A German Riesling. An Aussie Cavanet Sauvignon. Top recommendations. Although you’d probably recommend a French Cavanet

Gisela Kreglinger:
No, I, I, I, um, I like Australian, um, wine. Cabernet Sauvignons, and I was just in Napa for this film project we’re doing on wine in the world, and I had all these beautiful Napa Cabernet Sauvignons. I loved them.

Studio – John Dickson
Before we go any further, I want to acknowledge that some of you may have been directly or indirectly harmed by alcohol. For some, drinking is a terrible choice—and we’re not going to shy away from that in this episode. Gisela grew up in a healthy drinking culture, amid her family’s vineyards, in gorgeous Bavaria.

John Dickson:
Talk us through your background, Gisela. The, uh, idea of growing up in a winery in Bavaria sounds idyllic.

Gisela Kreglinger:
Whenever I tell people that I grew up on a winery, the first response usually is, oh, that must be so amazing, and they have these visions of a courtyard, and you sip wine in the sunsets, and, you know, of course, these things are part of our lives, and, you

John Dickson:
through the vineyards, that

Gisela Kreglinger
That’s true. I actually grew up at the bottom of a vineyard in a playpen, while my mother worked with all the workers in the field in the vineyard. And so that’s where I was parked. And, um, um, so yeah, I grew up on a winery in Franconia, which is part of Bavaria. And my family has been crafting wine for, you know, many generations, at least 200 years and have been making wine for the Lord’s Supper.

Studio – John Dickson
Franconia has a wine-making tradition stretching back to at least the 8th century.
We think of the Germans their beer, but wine, especially white wine, is a big deal in the region.

 John Dickson:
Did you have Um, a glass of wine at meal times, you know, even in your, you know, I guess later childhood, early teens. Was that a normal thing?

Gisela Kreglinger:
yeah, um, we, we weren’t allowed as children to drink wine, but in, uh, Germany, it’s legal to drink, um, a little bit of wine under the supervision of your parents when you’re 14, and that coincides with being confirmed in the Lutheran Church. So I had my first glass of wine when I got confirmed in the Lutheran Church, and we celebrated that like a wedding.

John Dickson:
right. Wow. Um, okay, so. Then you move to America. Can you describe the, is it culture shock? At least the drinking culture difference between Germany and America.

Gisela Kreglinger:
Yeah, you know, I’ve lived in a lot of different countries and, um, so when I moved to America and especially the American South and, which is very Christian, I was always intrigued by that and, um, realized that I had a lot to learn. And I remember, um, Um, you know, beginning, uh, teaching position at a seminary and it was a dry campus.

Studio – John Dickson
A dry campus, for those who don’t know, is a university campus where alcohol is banned outright. Remember, the legal drinking age in the US is 21–unlike much of the rest of the world where it’s 18–so it sort of makes sense to ban alcohol on campuses in America, because 75% of undergrads are below the legal drinking age. 

Gisela Kreglinger
And I’m like, wow, a dry campus. And the campus looked beautiful. I mean, everything was lush and green, even though it was very hot in the summer and not a lot of rain. But I realized dry campus meant that you weren’t allowed to drink alcohol on campus. And um, so that, that was a big adjustment for me because I’ve come from a culture and then I did. Um, my, you know, my PhD studies in, uh, St. Andrews in Scotland, um, where, you know, you would have reception after, you know, classes and you would get together and you discuss theology over a glass of wine or, you know, in Scotland they would have a wee dram of whiskey. And so, um, moving into, um, sort of a, um, an American context. It was an adjustment in, um, that the whole food and wine culture in the way they gathered was very different. And, um, one of the big difference, of course, is that they didn’t have wine, but also that the gatherings didn’t last for long. I just feel like the people have not developed a stamina for gathering and lingering and discussing and then having another glass of wine and just being together and really hashing things out.

John Dickson:
Um, but I guess I’d love to know what, what accounts for the difference in America.Uh, the, the sort of generalized weariness about alcohol and wine. Uh, you talk about it in your book, but can you give us the, um, you know, the simple version of, of why there is this hesitation?

Gisela Kreglinger
Well, I mean, I, actually in the South, where I live, it’s a very heavy drinking culture. So, um, uh, that’s very interesting, but historically speaking, um, you know, especially as it regards to wine, um, the U. S. has not had a real opportunity to develop a sort of a thoughtful and healthy and wholesome relationship with it because Um, you know, in, in the early days, it was very hard to, uh, plant vineyards. It did, it wasn’t possible on the East Coast. And um, so the, the, the, the becoming of this country went hand in hand with drinking rum and then whiskey. And in the early, um, 19th century, um, the explosion of distilleries that happened in the U. S. You know, went hand in hand with the Industrial Revolution that also happened in the UK. Um, but, um, that sort of made distilled spirit widely available to the American population, and that’s how they came of age, and that’s still, uh, one of their preferred drinks after beer. It’s, uh, Beer is the most popular drink. Then it’s distilled spirits and only after that it’s wine. So, you have both the, um, the, the, the, the ambivalent relationship with alcohol. There’s what I call this yin yang movement. You either drink a lot or then you have these temperance movements you don’t drink.

Studio – John Dickson
When Europeans first arrived in North America in the 16th and 17th centuries, they tried – but mostly failed – to grow vineyards. Wine had to be imported, which made it prohibitively expensive for regular people. So it was hard to transport the wine culture of Europe to the new world. But … the early Americans could make stronger spirits like Gin and Whiskey. Distilleries shot up throughout the country, and by the 19th century, America was awash with cheap spirits.  It was a disaster. There was rampant alcohol abuse – especially following the Civil War, with traumatised soldiers self-medicating with spirits. Alcohol-fueled violence rates skyrocketed. These abuses led to an understandable crackdown on drinking culture—from both religious institutions and the government. The Christian temperance movement was actually a godsend—it wasn’t motivated by purity but by a passion for social wellbeing.  And between 1920-1933 strong laws were passed seeking to curb the manufacturing and selling of alcohol across the States. This is the so called Prohibition Era. According to Gisela, modern America struggled to develop a health relationship with alcohol, with many coming to believe that a healthy relationship with booze was impossible and so all drinking was immoral. 

Gisela Kreglinger

What I have discovered is that as a culture, um, there hasn’t been a conversation yet how to sort of develop a wholesome relationship with alcohol and wine and have a conversation about that and then also have some thoughtful reflections about it and also the boundaries around it.For example, where I grew up, usually we didn’t drink. any alcohol before five o’clock. Well, here it is quite acceptable to say, well, it’s five o’clock somewhere, or you have a drink, um, over a business lunch or things like that. And that’s just not as common where I come from.

John Dickson:
Yeah. Okay. Well, let’s have one of those, um, thoughtful conversations, particularly as it relates, uh, to the Bible and to the history of Christianity. So I want to wind back, wind back, not whine back, to, uh, to the Old Testament. What are our first references to whine and what do they tell us?

Gisela Kreglinger:
Well, I think the first reference to wine comes with the story of Noah and, uh, it happens after the flood when, um, God makes a covenant with Noah. And, um, and really right after that, Noah plants a vineyard and this is sort of, Noah’s our first vineyard in the Bible. 

READING 

So God said to Noah, “This is the sign of the covenant I have established between me and all life on the earth” … Noah, a man of the soil, proceeded to plant a vineyard. When he drank some of its wine, he became drunk and lay uncovered inside his tent.

Genesis Chapter 9

Gisela Krelginger:
That story goes hand in hand with Noah also getting drunk and, um, the story of him lying naked in his tent, his son, son finding him and that sort of whole story, um, is very upsetting. And, um, so often, um, the readers of the Bible don’t realize how profound of an act it was for Noah. to, um, plant a vineyard, because when you come off the arc and you have to start anew, the first thing you would want to do is to plant grains, because grains are a fast crop. You have that within a season, while with planting a vineyard, you have to wait four to five years for the vines to be fruitful and then to make wine. So I really feel like it was another act. of faith, just like Noah built an ark years ahead of when the flood happened. Um, Noah planted a vineyard years and aeons before God created this people. It was really, um, a confidence in God’s future and that God was going to make them into a civilization.

Studio – John Dickson
The account of Noah is one of the more mysterious episodes in the Bible – so much so that we have a whole episode on it with my Wheaton colleague John Walton. Link in the show notes! An interesting tidbit from the Biblical flood account though is we’re told that Noah’s Ark came to rest on Mount Ararat – a majestic peak that straddles the border of the modern states of Turkey and Armenia (The mountain  even features it on their passport stamps!). Research Al has the stamp in his passport to prove it.  It’s from this region in the Caucasus Mountains that the world’s oldest winery was discovered in 2007 – the 6000 year old “Areni-1” cave in Vayots Dzor, Armenia. (Quick hello to my beautiful Armenian friends—Christina … Hagop …). In neighbouring Georgia (by the Black Sea), researchers found the oldest chemical traces of wine in two pottery jars, over 8000 years old! Maybe it’s Noah’s cellar … okay, maybe not. But the region is dubbed the “cradle of wine”—it’s a happy coincidence that the place where we’ve found the earliest evidence of wine-making is the very region traditionally associated with Noah’s vineyard. There’s got to be some super old echo of oral tradition in that. 

John Dickson:
Still thinking about the Old Testament though, um, what would you say is the dominant theme about wine in the Old Testament? I mean, there are some criticisms. of drunkenness and so on. Some proverbs against wine. Uh, but are these dominant or is some other theme dominant?

Gisela Kreglinger:
I think that the most important, um, theme and understanding of wine that it is a gift from God and a blessing. This is how we know God’s blessing. It’s an abundance of vines and vineyard and, um, and wine for, um, life and celebration. And that is the theme that occurs. Throughout the Old Testament, um, you know, in Psalm 104, which is a beautiful creation psalm that celebrates God as our creator, it is, it, it, it, it said that God gave wine to gladden the hearts of humanity.

READING 

He makes springs pour water into the ravines;

    it flows between the mountains.

They give water to all the beasts of the field;

    the wild donkeys quench their thirst.

 The birds of the sky nest by the waters;

    they sing among the branches.

 He waters the mountains from his upper chambers;

    the land is satisfied by the fruit of his work.

He makes grass grow for the cattle,

    and plants for people to cultivate—

    bringing forth food from the earth:

wine that gladdens human hearts,

    oil to make their faces shine,

    and bread that sustains their hearts.

Psalm 104

Gisela Kreglinger:
So you have the sense, yes, you know, creation is a gift and wine is a gift and it has a very special purpose in our lives. It, uh, brings gladness and joy. It helps us lean into the joy that we have in knowing God as our creator and redeemer. And it imbues our sort of daily meals and celebrations with something very, very special that sort of lifts it to another sphere.

John Dickson:
I don’t mean to be at all disrespectful or blasphemous, um, but would it be going too far to sort of say that the fact that wine, there was a wine sacrifice in the temple is an indication of God’s own approval of wine.

Gisela Kreglinger:
Um, yes, that certainly is another indication that, you know, the best of creation was brought to the temple. And, um, you know, the temple was an important place where the Israelites, um, celebrated and cultivated their relationship with God. And it taught them that all that the earth brings forth is a gift from God. And so by returning it as a sacrifice, they acknowledged that all was given from God. And so they bring, you back the first fruit of it and wine was part of that. So it really elevated, um, wine to something very, very special. And I think, um, it, it really becomes apparent when wine is used to talk about the eschatological age, the age to come, God’s redemption in the future, whether that is through a Messiah that would come and, um, and deliver God’s people or whether that was, um, Jesus in the Lord’s Supper, talking about, um, the end of times when he will return, um, where he says in the celebration of the Passover turned into the Lord’s Supper, I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until I drink it anew with you in my father’s kingdom.

Studio – John Dickson:
Jesus mentions wine a few times in the Gospels. As a Jew he will have drunk wine at most celebrations. There is evidence of ancient vineyards all around his home district of lower Galilee—there’s a least one ancient wine press we know of in Nazareth itself. But the wine in those days was non-alcoholic right?? Stay with us …

**BREAK 1**

Clip – The Gez Z brides of today

Studio – John Dickson:
That’s courtesy of the New York Post, tracking the trend of the dry wedding. And it’s not just a thing among religious types! A recent study by the UK site Hitched found that 11 per cent of surveyed couples were considering a dry wedding. Reasons for dry weddings vary – respecting the sobriety of friends and family, supporting someone in recovery, or just not wanting to shoulder that extra cost. I mean, seriously, alcohol budgets at weddings today can be obscene. That said, Jesus wasn’t against wine at weddings—good wine at that!

John Dickson:
You mentioned Jesus, so let’s, um, turn to him and to the New Testament. There’s clear evidence of ancient vineyards. Uh, in and around, uh, lower Galilee and Nazareth, and they’ve even found an ancient wine press, uh, on the outskirts of the ancient village of Nazareth. Should we be surprised at that?

Gisela Kreglinger:
No, not at all. Um, there were wine presses all over the place and Palestine had always been known for being, um, an area where, um, vines flourished and where viticulture was an important part of the industry. Uh, for thousands of years, really. So it’s an old tradition. 

John Dickson:
For my listeners who maybe don’t know much about Jesus or the Gospels, tell us Jesus story with wine,

Gisela Kreglinger:
Okay, well, um, It’s very interesting that some of, um, the Jewish teachers that were critical of him accused him of being a glutton and a drunkard because he was known to hang around with all sorts of people, respectable and not so respected by society. And he shared meals with them, and that’s really how he did his ministry abroad. He joined dinner parties and enjoyed wine and drank wine and it’s mentioned here and there. But, um, you know, he was on the road for over three years and he didn’t have his own home. So he would have been with all sorts of, um, um You know, believers and, um, outcasts and, um, you know, religious elites and, um, sinners and, um, had a meal with them and enjoyed wine. But really, um, two of the most important, um, moments, um, in Jesus life is at the, um, wedding feast of Cana. He and his family were invited to a wedding feast, um, in a little town called Cana. And, um, it might have been even a priestly home because the stone, the jars that were there were made out of stone rather than clay. So we, we don’t know a lot about,

John Dickson:
purity.

Gisela Kreglinger:
yeah, yeah. So we don’t know a lot about that, but you know, the host ran out of wine 

Studio – John Dickson:
Weddings were a big deal in Ancient Judea. They could last for up to a week, and running out of wine was a huge embarrassment for the entire family. It’s kind of the modern equivalent of forgetting to organise food for a wedding reception – and the entire suburb where you and your spouse are going to live are your guests. What happens next appears to be the first chronologically recorded miracle in the Gospels – and Gisela does such a wonderful job of explaining it, that it’s time to press pause! We’re going to throw to Gisela for her own Five Minute Jesus (with my occasional interruptions).

Gisela Kreglinger:
And then Mary, Jesus mother saw it and he, she turned to her son and said, They have run out of wine and, um, she sort of knew that he could do something and though he was hesitant to, he transformed, um, water in the six stone jars, uh, of water for rites of purification that the Jewish, Jewish, Jewish people did at the time.

READING 

On the third day there was a wedding in Cana of Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there. Jesus and his disciples had also been invited to the wedding. When the wine gave out, the mother of Jesus said to him, ‘They have no wine.’ And Jesus said to her, ‘Woman, what concern is that to you and to me? My hour has not yet come.’ His mother said to the servants, ‘Do whatever he tells you.’ Now standing there were six stone water-jars for the Jewish rites of purification, each holding twenty or thirty gallons. Jesus said to them, ‘Fill the jars with water.’ And they filled them up to the brim. He said to them, ‘Now draw some out, and take it to the chief steward.’ So they took it. 

John Chapter 2

Gisela Kreglinger:
And he transformed it into wine. But not only into wine, into really, really excellent wine. And, um, in that way, the wedding party could go on, and most people probably didn’t even notice. I mean, his mother knew, the disciples knew, um, the people that, you know, carried, um, the wine to what I call the sommelier at the party. There was someone in charge of the wine who then said, Wow, um, I don’t understand this. Usually you serve. The best wine first, and then after the party has gotten intoxicated, then you serve the lesser quality wine, because it doesn’t matter so much. But no, he, um, miracles forth an abundance of choice wine.

READING

When the steward tasted the water that had become wine, and did not know where it came from (though the servants who had drawn the water knew), the steward called the bridegroom and said to him, ‘Everyone serves the good wine first, and then the inferior wine after the guests have become drunk. But you have kept the good wine until now.’ Jesus did this, the first of his signs, in Cana of Galilee, and revealed his glory; and his disciples believed in him.

Gisela Kreglinger:
So, it affirms that Jesus, um, gave value and dignity to human celebrations, but he deepens. Um, the wedding party celebrations by providing this abundance of wine. So there’s an affirmation of the goodness of celebration, the goodness of joy, and the goodness of wine. But then I think there’s another wedding party all together. It’s, um, when the Old Testament prophets talk about the Messiah, they talk about an abundance of wine flowing, and feasts and celebrations, and even a wedding feast that God has with his people. And so when Jesus steps on the scene, and his first miracle is to transform an abundance of water into an abundance of wine, he really steps bridegroom and says, I am the Messiah.

Studio – John Dickson
How about that? Wine as a sign of God’s presence! Think about that the next time you go to the Bottle Shop or Offie (I forget what they call it in the US)! Back to the 5MJ.

John Dickson:
That has a celebratory theme, obviously. Um, is it also true there’s a more solemn, um, sense of the meaning of wine if we go to the end of the Jesus story and, and it’s the Last Supper and now wine. Hmm. is a picture of his own shed blood, which rather dampens the joy, doesn’t it?

Gisela Kreglinger:
Well, um, that’s a really, really good point. You know, when Jesus first celebrated, um, the Passover meal with his disciples, and, um, then turned it into what we now know as the Lord’s Supper, we interpret it in light of his own, um, Death and resurrection you have to remember that the Passover meal though. It was also solemn It was also a very festive celebrations with four cups of wine being drunk over the course of an evening in the Israelites retelling the story of the exodus and that god has saved them So when you think about jesus celebrating the lord’s supper the in in those early days It wasn’t what we experienced In church today, where we, if we’re lucky, we get a wafer and a sip of wine or grape juice. For them, it was the Passover celebration and they drank four cups of wine. And then Jesus does this remarkable, um, um, thing. He takes one of the cups and, um, speaks about his impending death and he says, um, drink from this cup. This is my blood shed for you. So, um, drink from this cup. Wine now comes to speak of, um, Christ’s crushing death. And yes, there is a somberness to it. It speaks about something that’s being crushed. God, um, Christ sacrifices life for us. But you also have to realize that in the Lord’s Supper, we don’t just, um, remember Christ’s death. We also celebrate his resurrection. Out of death comes this new life. And wine speaks to both of these realities. And the whole winemaking process, grapes having to be crushed, pressed, and squeezed of their life. And then you have the grape juice, and then that grape juice is being transformed. So it speaks, the whole winemaking process speaks about Christ being crushed, um, nailed to the cross for the sins of this world. And it’s really interesting in the medieval tradition, they had this art. Um, this art form where they depicted Christ in the winepress, and so Christ is crushed in the winepress, and at the bottom of it, you see the Eucharistic cup that collects the wine that’s Christ’s blood. So yes, there is this somberness to it, um, but there’s also this dimension that wine bring, wine brings joy, and what Christ has done for us has set us on a new path of eternal life. And that is incredibly, that’s the most joyous news that you could receive. So wine speaks to that as well, because wine brings joy, gladdens our hearts. And so when we drink from the Eucharistic cup, we both receive the blood of Christ being shed and we also receive the joy of new and eternal life. You know, wines, good wines can be kept for hundreds of years.

And, um, so a wine, like no other food, can speak to us of eternal life, life that will never end. And, um, that, um, even though we experience a lot of turmoil in this life, and we will die, for us, death is a door into the eternal presence of God. And wine speaks to all of this.

Studio – John Dickson
Well … you can press play now. Hey, all … I asked Gisela for her take on the claim — that I keep hearing even today — that the wine of Jesus’ ministry was non-alcoholic or at least very, very low alcohol content. But if you want to hear that, you have to subscribe to the PLUS feed. It’s probably worth it just for her answer!!!! The Old and New Testaments paint a pretty consistently positive picture of wine. God gave wine – all alcohol really – as a gift to humans, to enjoy properly, in the way He intended.  So, how did the early Christians navigate all this?

John Dickson:
You write that Cyprian, the great early to mid third century, uh, bishop and theologian, wrote the first defense of wine. Why did he have to do that, and what did he say?

Gisela Kreglinger:
Well, I think, um, the defense of wine has come, you know, third century, probably earlier, because, um, people do abuse it, you know, this is. Um, this is just part of the story of, um, humanity. You know, people, um, receive this gift and they abuse it. And then voices emerged that said, well, it might be better for us not to drink wine.

Studio – John Dickson
Wine was a normal part of life for the early Christians, not just at Communion or the Lord’s Supper, but also at communal feasts and celebrations. But then the less orthodox branches Christianity developed an anti-drinking policy, arising from their (heretical) view of nature and bodily pleasure. The Encratites–named from the word self-control–disdained the body and physical creation. Wine was a no go for them. In the third century, the Hydroparastatae were a kind of ‘water only’ mob — that’s the hydro in Hydroparastatae — They insisted on using water instead of wine even in the Communion meal. What drove this was a hyper asceticism … that was completely at odds with the earliest forms of Christianity.  And basically all the Gnostic sects shunned wine, for the same reason they shunned the God of the Old Testament: they despised creation and looked to the higher Spirit to deliver their own spirit from the entrapments of the body and its enjoyments. That is not Christianity. There are decent moral and social reasons people might avoid alcohol—but suspicion of bodily pleasure isn’t one of them!! Thankfully, cooler heads prevailed in ancient Christianity. Undeceptions favourite – Cyprian – is a good example. He was the third-century bishop of Carthage featured in episode 112 Cultural Christianity, with Nadya Williams. When he wasn’t giving sermons urging believers to help plague victims—which he had to do a lot in the 250s AD—Cyprian was writing on all manner of topics – including a defence of wine! Against the teachings of the Hydroparastatae, he said avoiding wine—actual alcoholic wine—in Communion was so disobedient to the commands of Jesus at his Last Supper that removing wine was removing God’s grace. I suspect that’s an overbold rhetorical flourish … but his view became the view for the rest of Church history (until recently). Communion is not Communion if it doesn’t use genuine wine! It’s not the sort of thing we’d normally associate with the historic Church’s dogmatism. 

Gisela Kreglinger:
Cyprian and so many other of the church fathers, um, realized that, um, You know, just because we abuse wine, um, doesn’t mean we can just sort of. Um, delete the whole history of wine and faith. You know, scripture is the foundation for how we conduct our lives as Christians. So they read very carefully, um, both the Old and New Testament and affirmed that wine is a gift from God that, um, that we, um, we are to receive faithfully. But also, you know, wine speaks. In a very profound way of Christ’s sacrifice, the whole winemaking process parallels the sacrificial death of Christ, and yet wine is transformed into something beautiful and new and lasting, just like Christ’s death is transformed into resurrection life that lasts eternally. So, I think this is what theologians have come back to. to over and over and over is we need to be faithful to scripture and it’s not Those who are ill and those who abuse god’s gifts that determine the life of the healthy But it’s scripture and the wisdom that we can gain from scripture in how to receive those gifts.

John Dickson:
Is this why, in the medieval period, monasteries often engaged in making wine?

Gisela Kreglinger:
Um, you know, that’s a great, great question. Why did, um, monks and nuns plant vineyards? Um, you know, one of the really important, um, figures in the development of monasticism in wine is, uh, Saint Benedict, who wrote, who wrote the Rule of Saint Benedict. 

Studio – John Dickson
Gisela boldly claims in her book that “No monk shaped Western Christianity and viticulture more than Saint Benedict of Nursia”. St Benedict’s lifetime straddled the 5th and 6th centuries, a very turbulent period of history in Italy. Benedict basically established the Western monastic movement. He didn’t want monks drinking at all. He thought their work was too important to risk being drunk–not only did they have lots of praying to do, monks had a very serious scholarly life, and they had to work with their hands another 4-6 hours a day. But Benedict was also aware of Italy’s rich history of wine-making, dating back to pre-Roman times. So, he settled on what he thought was an ideal practice of moderation. In the Rule he writes, “we believe that one hemina of wine a day is sufficient for each person.” That’s 275 millilitres a day; or just over 9 liquid ounces – about half a pint. By Australian measurements, that’s just over 2 glasses of wine a day. 

 

Gisela Kreglinger:
And, um, you know, he operated in Italy, and Italy was a heavy wine drinking culture.And I think Saint Benedict You know, he was quite shaped by John Cassian in The Desert Fathers, and he would have liked a more austere approach, but he realized that You know, I can’t really forbid Italians to drink wine. And then he also knew that, um, you know, that was in the Bible. So he said, you know, every monk and nun, um, is allowed one Jimena of wine a day, which is probably about a third of a liter. And, um, and then, you know, um, Benedict, um, also in his rule said that all monks and nuns have to be involved in manual labor. So they really became very agrarian. In their approach to missions, when they set up a monastery to sort of evangelize, um, Europe, they of course, um, set up a place of worship. Worship was so important to them. Um, but then they also developed agriculture and of course they planted vineyards because they needed wine for the Lord’s Supper. Um, and so that’s, um, how that story began and, you know, wine was an everyday drink. Um, access to, um, safe sources of water wasn’t always guaranteed, but the, you know, the alcohol in the wine killed up a lot of bacteria. And so it was a fairly safe drink. beverage to drink. So, um, the Benedictines really took off in Burgundy in, you know, maybe the ninth century with, with the reform, uh, of Benedict of Ariane and, um, sort of exploded over a couple centuries and, um, planted vineyards and became very, very successful. And,

John Dickson:
I right that the monastery at Cluny became a particularly famous

Gisela Kreglinger:
Yes, Cluny, Cluny became a really, really important center and it was a satellite monastery called, um, Abbey Saint Vivant on the Burgundian Côte d’Or, the golden route where all the Grands Crus are, and it was Benedictine monks who planted them. Many of those, of, um, of those Gra Cruz and I actually, once a year, I lead a wine pilgrimage and we go to the ruins of that abbey that is being rebuilt, rebuilt by Burgundian vintners. And, um, we get to follow those, um, um, in the tracks of these monks and nuns and we really owe them most of the wine culture that we know now. It’s from these monks and nuns who continue to do agriculture, plant vineyards, and craft wine to the glory of God. I believe that they, um, um, built this. What I call cathedral structures into their wines. They crafted wines in such a way. They learned how to craft wine that really exuded a lot of beauty and complexity. So it was worthy to hold the presence of Christ in the Eucharist. That was very important to them.

Studio – John Dickson
Monks and nuns engaging in winemaking as an act of worship sounds weird today perhaps! But the Benedictine’s are credited with the earliest forms of champagne, monks in Portugal created Port, and another monastic order – the Cistercians – are who we have to thank for Sauvignon Blanc. Christianity has overwhelmingly endorsed the drinking of wine. But … it can all go wrong. That’s coming up.

*BREAK 2**

Clip – Daniel Radcliffe interview

John Dickson:
That’s actor Daniel Radcliffe, talking about drinking on the Off Camera show with Sam Jones. He’s best known for playing Harry Potter, of course, but he has a huge acting resume behind him now. Like many child stars, Radcliffe had some wilderness years where he struggled with substance abuse – in particular, alcohol. He made the call to give up drinking. He’s one of the most most high-profile teetotalers in the world. Good on him. Like Radcliffe, heaps of people hit a point in their lives where they realise alcohol has – and is – taking up too much space. And Christians have been at the forefront of picking up the pieces of alcohol abuse. Many, many churches (especially in the US) have recovery programs. And the famous 12-Step program designed to help recovering alcoholics (Alcoholics Anonymous) is actually based on the model of church discipleship.  The founders Bill Wilson and Bob Smith were influenced by Christianity, Bob Smith especially. And, of course, the recognition of a Higher Power, “God as you understand him” is an essential part of the program. Conscious of the need to be good neighbours, a lot of churches now serve grape juice for communion, instead of wine. For most of church history—and for Catholic and Orthodox today—that wouldn’t have been seen as real communion. But it comes from a very good place.

John Dickson:
Can you talk us through what the tradition says, uh, of a more cautious note? I’m sort of thinking from the Bible, um, really from the Bible, but, but also how that was reflected in the fathers and through the medieval period. Just, there, there was a clear, um, command against getting drunk.

Gisela Kreglinger: Absolutely

READING 

Be careful then how you live, not as unwise people but as wise, making the most of the time, because the days are evil. So do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. Do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery; but be filled with the Spirit 

Ephesians Chapter 5

READING 

Ah, you who are heroes in drinking wine and valiant at mixing drink, who acquit the guilty for a bribe, and deprive the innocent of their rights!

Isaiah Chapter 5

John Dickson:
So on the one hand you have this celebration, which you’ve emphasised, this celebrating wine as a gift. But on the other, a very clear and consistent statement that drunkenness is wrong. Can you just talk us through that spectrum?

Gisela Kreglinger:
Yeah. I mean, uh, and, and, you know, it meant different things in different periods. For example, when you think about the reformers, you know, mostly what they drank was beer and wine, you know, we don’t do that anymore. So people had a lot higher stamina for alcohol than we have today. But you know, throughout church history, there was always this sense of it’s a gift from God.

Studio – John Dickson

Hey just chiming in on this one – Martin Luther was a big fan of God’s liquid gifts – especially beer. His wife Katie was also renowned for the beer she brewed for him at home. In a letter he once wrote to her in 1535, he complained that he had drunk some beer “which did not agree with me… I said to myself what good wine and beer I have at home, and also what a pretty lady”. We’ve put a fun article called ‘The Beers of Martin Luther’ in the show notes.

Gisela Kreglinger:
But don’t abuse it and don’t get drunk. I mean, that’s what Luther struggled with. You know, he had all these people coming to him saying, we know that we shouldn’t allow people to drink wine because people are getting drunk. And he says, no, you, we must teach people not to get drunk and not abuse, um, alcohol. And yet, um, and yet have it be part of daily life. And I think through that, In those cultures, and you know, I grew up in a, in a, in a Christian wine culture, so to speak, you know, Benedictine nuns first sort of plant, of course, the Romans were there, but in the hills, it was the Benedictine nuns who planted vineyards in the city. 7th century. So we’ve had a good long time to really develop some wisdom. And, um, so, you know, in my culture, there is the sense that, you know, you don’t drink before five o’clock. Um, and then there is the sense you don’t drink every day. And, you know, on Sundays, we would have, um, a glass of wine with our Sunday meal and then we would have a nap and go for a walk. We, we didn’t have to sort of get into a car and drive anywhere. And so there’s a much stronger sense of you don’t drink and drive, you know, this is sort of contemporary, but, you know, the ins and outs of that wisdom, I, you know, I don’t know how, how we would capture that, but every culture has sort has to discern that. And so in, in my culture, um, there is the sense that you don’t, um, you don’t overindulge and you don’t drink a whole bottle of wine by yourself. Um, unless you really have like a wedding feast, we’re going to be there all day and all evening, and then you drink more glasses of wine. Um, you, you, you just drink in moderation and then even moderation, you know, someone, um, who is.

A, a man who is, um, taller and heavyset can cope with a little bit more alcohol than someone, like a woman who is petite and, um, you know, can’t deal with a lot of alcohol. So I think that sense of moderation has sort of varied even as we sort of look at church history because of the whole custom of people, you know, drinking more wine or beer because it was a, so a, a safe source of, um, liquid and they didn’t have to drive, while in contemporary context, you know, everyone drives now. And drinking and driving is just very dangerous. You don’t want to do that. So you have to be, you know, you have to be very contextualized in how you set boundaries and the sort of wisdom that you develop. Let’s understand it and then let’s develop wisdom and boundaries around understanding and receiving this gift well.

Studio – John Dickson

“Receiving the gift well”. That handy piece of advice can be applied to loads of things. Christians believe that creation is full of wonderful gifts from God, but gifts should never be abused. Abstaining from drunkenness is the instruction that comes with wine, repeatedly. Working out where that line of drunkenness is though can be tricky – and according to Gisela, the boundaries of what is acceptable are quite a bit wider than many might expect.

John Dickson:
Readers may get a big shock when they turn to  a section where you talk about holy tipsiness and holy intoxication. So talk me through what on earth holy tipsiness is.

Gisela Kreglinger:
Well, um, you know, obviously alcohol, um, has an impact on your body and you can get intoxicated. And that’s usually talked about. in merely negative ways. And obviously if you get really drunk, um, that is not good and, um, we should not approve of that. But there is a slight level of intoxication that’s actually quite positive. It’s that level of intoxication where you just relax enough that you can let go of your pretensions, that you let go of your defense mechanisms, and, um, you open up to each other. 

READING 

 Go, eat your bread with enjoyment and drink your wine with a merry heart, for God has long ago approved what you do.  Let your garments always be white; do not let oil be lacking on your head. Enjoy life with the wife whom you love all the days of your vain life that are given you under the sun, because that is your portion in life and in your toil at which you toil under the sun. 

Ecclesiastes Chapter 9

John Dickson:
Are you basing this on scripture or your experience?

Gisela Kreglinger:
On experience, but of course the science around it is also there. You know how alcohol impacts the body, but again, you know, I just listened to a neuroscientist talk about how negative that is. You know when you get intoxicated and you are so inhibited, but there’s a level of being inhibited That is actually quite positive, you know, we we live in cultures. We have to pretend to have it all together We’re successful and we have to give this appearance of looking glamorous and um We actually long for places where we can just be who we are with all the the strengths and weaknesses In the hardships that we go through so to have a space Well, we can let loose a little bit and just sort of, um, you know, I remember in the tasting room, suddenly these confessions happened, confessions of delight and joy, but also confessions of deep sadness and trauma and loss and vulnerability that, um, you know, Germans tend to be quite reserved and not so forthcoming with their personal lives. And growing up in a tasting room and watching a whole group be transformed from very, very sort of uptight and stiff and formal and wanting to appear to be successful and, um, having it all together to, at the end, people just, you know, Just laughing, crying, sharing, being vulnerable and having really wonderful conversations with each other.

John Dickson:
German, German, Nürschtin.

Gisela Kreglinger:
yeah, yeah, German nüchtern. We have a, we have a

John Dickson:
To be, to be too sober

Gisela Kreglinger:
To be too sober as a negative. If you are too sober, if you can’t let go and have fun and relax, that’s not a good thing. So I think, yeah. Wine can help with that. And that’s also important for our celebrations. You know, we need to learn how to celebrate again.

John Dickson:
Yes, you link wine, you link wine to relationships, don’t you? Can you tell me more about that important connection?

Gisela Kreglinger:
Well, um, like with all things that God gives. They are meant for relationship. Wine is meant to deepen our relationship with each other, with God, and with the good world creation that He has given to us. And so this idea that you would drink wine by yourself is not a biblical idea. In the biblical times, people always gathered together. I mean, this is how their lives were structured. Today we live such different lives. But it was meant for families and communities to come together for meals. And, um, and share wine together. And so I think that’s really, really important. And it wasn’t just that they shared it with each other. There was this deep awareness that wine was a gift from God. The whole world was given to us to, um, nurture our relationship with God. and each other. That’s how the world was designed to be. We were never meant to sit at home by ourselves and drink a glass of wine and feel lonely or just, you know, watch TV. We were always meant to gather and be God’s people together by sharing meals and sharing wine and lean into joy, even as we go through sometimes really, really hard times. I like going through divorce, or having cancer, or losing your business, or having your spouse die. I mean, life can be brutally hard, and the most important thing we do, we need to cultivate relationships that we can be part of when life becomes hard, as well as when life is beautiful.

Studio – John Dickson
This is all well and good. But as I spoke to Gisela, I was also thinking of listeners who might be struggling …

John Dickson:
There may be some listeners. Um, whose life has been damaged by alcoholism, either personally or a family member. Um, what, what wisdom might you give them?

Gisela Kreglinger:
I think it’s very, very important to take that seriously, to take seriously the trauma of it. that alcohol abuse brings to families and communities. So, um, my advice is to take seriously your story, um, whether that’s a relative of yours or whether it’s your own life, take that seriously and take seriously that, um, you need to heal, um, that it’s easy to get stuck in a trauma and, um, not be able to heal. And so I want to encourage all of you out there who are listening to this, and um, if you have experienced trauma around alcohol, I hope and pray that you can find people that can walk with you to walk the journey of healing and of forgiveness. And for some, um, of those people who have experienced this trauma, they will never be able to drink wine. Um, but then some might be able to heal from that trauma. Let’s say you’ve had a grandfather who was an alcoholic and really damaged a lot of the family, um, health. Um, you might be able to say, you know, I have this trauma in my family, but um, I, I want to explore wine. It is a gift from God. How do I do this well? And, um, that’s why I have sort of an appendix in the back of the book that helps people, um, sort of, you know, Think through and talk through how to develop a healthy and wholesome relationship with wine. And I highly recommend that you don’t try to do that on your own, but do it in a community. Do it if you’re married, with your spouse, or if you’re single, try to, you know, gather a community that you savor wine with and have some food and see how that can deepen your appreciation of God’s creation in the community that God has given you. But I want to say for all of those who have that in their story and history that, um, do take that seriously and do, um, do seek help where you feel like you need help.

Studio – John Dickson
All good things can be perverted to become bad things … Strength … wealth … intelligence … technology … sex …  food … and, of course, wine. Yet, they remain God’s gifts … for a purpose. Just as we need to work out the purpose of sex is, or strength or whatever, in order to use them as they were intended by the Giver, so … wine can be misused … it can be harmful … but it is meant to be for joy and relationship. Like the best gifts, wine can point us back to the Giver … to God.

John Dickson:
Can you conclude by telling us what you think wine tells us about reality and God himself?

Gisela Kreglinger:
Um, wine is a beautiful gift and the world is a beautiful place. And I think, ultimately, beauty speaks of our Creator and Redeemer. Um, Andrew Jeffert, who is a fantastic wine writer, Um, he’s English, he lives in France, he is actually the son of an Anglican priest. He’s an atheist. And he, um, is one of the most wonderful wine writers and appreciates wine. And, um, You know, when you have a beautiful wine and you experience that beauty, um, to whom do you direct your gratitude? Where does this lead you to? Um, but you look around the world and how beautiful this world is, as much as it is aching under, um, the pressure that we exert on creation and how we exploit it. Look how beautiful it is. And, um, think about, um, how creation is a gift from God and how it can lead you to an understanding of this amazing and beautiful and creative presence that made this beautiful world. So I think, to me, wine speaks of a giver who is giving in abundance and generously. You know, we could have just had water and bread, but we have an abundance of gifts like wine and all the flavors and colors in the world that really speaks of a benevolent presence in this world. It does to me. Obviously not everyone will feel that, but if you really discover it and go out into nature, um, I always feel overwhelmed by what I find out there. Savoring wine is a very personal encounter with something beautiful. And, um, you will, you might have very different memories that you associate with this wine, and very different emotions as well. From the experts so really they have put wine into a straight jacket a rationalized straight jacket of talking about wine when really You can have a very personal um savoring experience and it will stir your emotions and call back memories that will help you in, um, your experience and in your conversations, and it will shape things in a very unique way. And you know, this is how it’s also with God. God doesn’t sort of meet us in this sort of abstract sort of, um, theology, um, or, you know, certain, you know, confessions that you have. God meets us where you’re at, who you are, how you feel, what your experiences are, and he wants to love you and redeem you right there in a very personalized way. And this is really our encounter with wine as well. It’s a very personal experience. And I feel like sometimes the wine experts in their talk, they make you shut. of your own experiences. And I think that’s that that’s very unfortunate. So I want to free you and wine for this intimate encounter that it was always meant to be.

John Dickson:
I notice it’s 4 p. m. where you are and where I am. Um, and I’m thinking when it’s 5 p. m. and not before, I will open a bottle of wine and, uh, have a glass with my wife. And we’ll think of all these thoughts that you’ve given us. I’m really thankful for your time, Gisela.