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Forgive Us                                                                                     

Content Warning

John Dickson: ​Hey, just to let you know that in this episode we discuss abuse and its effects. So some may want to give this a miss. Stay safe.

Amy Orr-Ewing:

The major argument against the Christian faith that I experienced articulated by people coming from that mindset, m- you know, more from the left, was this idea that, um, we don’t care about harm and injustice enough because forgiving is letting people off.

Yeah. And a genuine justice movement would never do that because to let someone off would be to minimize harm, abuse, whether that’s slavery or homophobia or colonization or, you know, racism or whatever the h- the, you know, the harms, uh, that one cares about.

Media – CBS Sunday Mornings, Taylor Swift

You know, people go on and on about like you have to forgive and forget to move past something. No, you don’t. You don’t have to forgive, and you don’t have to forget to move on. You can move on without any of those things happening. You just become indifferent, and then you move on.

John Dickson (Studio)

That’s Taylor Swift on CBS Sunday Mornings back in 2019.

She’s been called a lot of things in her career. One of them is Queen of the Grudge Banger. She sings revenge better than most people. Her song Look What You Made Me Do says, “I’ve got a list of names, and yours is in red underlined.” Uh, or End Game, “I bury hatchets, but I keep maps of where I put them.” Or this one, The Smallest Man Who Ever Lived.

Ouch, what a title. It says, “I’ll forget you, but I’ll never forgive.” Now, Taylor Swift is much loved here at Undeceptions. So socials Sophie and producer Kaylee are parsing every word I’m saying right now. Uh, this whole opener was, of course, Kaylee’s idea. But what they don’t know is that I too love Taylor.

In fact, every year I have a muso’s party in Sydney with my buddies, and we work our way through our favorite songs, uh, like 30-song setlist, where we do all the singing and play all the instruments. And just last Friday night, a few days ago, Taylor Swift’s Shake It Off made an honorable appearance at this party.

My daughter Josie was on vocals, and some friends, shout out to Kate and Ness, joined her. In fact, I have proof here. I don’t know if I’m gonna break copyright rules here, but

Director Mark: Just so it’s worth it, you are breaking copyright. We can’t play that.

John Dickson: Yeah. So, um, but surely what we can … But surely we can-

Producer Kaley: We can, we can show you doing it- … do a fun thing … but we will not be playing the song.

John Dickson: Anyway, Taylor Swift’s message in some of these songs is unmistakable. You don’t have to forgive. You don’t have to forget, and you can move on with your life without forgiving the wrongdoer.

She’s tapped into something sort of deep in our culture at the moment. We live in a pretty unforgiving age. We prize accountability. We archive every offense. We cancel and we condemn, and forgiveness seems weak and unjust. And that creates a problem for Christianity because as most people know, Christianity has a bit to say about forgiveness, theological forgiveness, God forgiving us, and sociological forgiveness, us forgiving others.

So what does forgiveness actually mean? How does it work? Does it work anymore? Does it involve forgetting wrongs, trusting someone again? And can you forgive someone who just isn’t sorry? What about profound evil and injustice? Can you forgive that? The Christian emphasis on forgiveness has shaped our civilization, but does it still make sense?

I’m John Dickson and this is Undeceptions.

Each episode of Undeceptions, we explore some aspect of life, faith, history, science, culture, or ethics that’s either much misunderstood or mostly forgotten and with the help of people who know what they’re talking about, we’re trying to undeceive ourselves and let the truth out.

John Dickson: Amy, uh, you say we live in an unforgiving age. What exactly do you mean by that?

Amy Orr-Ewing: Well, um, I think we all can see around us just whether it’s looking at, um, the increase in estrangement in families or, um, whether we’re looking at kind of cancel culture in its various iterations. You know, that’s a, a moving feast, but the sense that- Well, that’s left and right.

Yes, absolutely. Absolutely, isn’t it? Yeah. Yeah. Cancel culture on the, perhaps on the left, cruelty culture on the right, where- Mm … um, there are vendettas in play, where there’s a sense that unless you agree with me and you’re in my tribe, you’re dead to me. And that feels like, um, a, a different situation than, say, six, seven, eight, 10, 100 years ago, where language of forgiveness and redemption, the possibility of giving someone a second chance was, was far more common, and obviously influenced by, by Christian faith in Western culture.

John Dickson (Studio)

That’s Dr. Amy Orr-Ewing, an author, speaker, and friend of the pod. She’s an honorary lecturer at the School of Divinity at the University of Aberdeen and a distinguished scholar at Wheaton College. Woo-hoo. And her most recent book is Forgiveness: Reclaiming Its Power in a Culture of Outrage and Fear. We’ve all heard of cancel culture.

That’s that form of public shaming that culminates often in boycotting something or someone after a perceived wrongdoing. The so-called left have done it to JK Rowling for her comments about transgenderism. Uh, the so-called right has done it toward Target stores across America because they sold LGBT-themed merchandise.

And then there’s cruelty culture, which apparently is another thing, and Amy describes this as the intention to dehumanize the other. Uh, foreigners seeking asylum, the Jewish community around the corner. But whether it’s cancel culture or cruelty culture, whether it’s the left or the right, one thing seems clear: we’re not super big on second chances.

[00:08:19] John Dickson: What exactly is forgiveness, though? You, you say, you mentioned a second chance. Is that what it is? Is it, is it a- Mm … state of mind? Is it an emotion, a, a legal matter? Have you got a definition for us?

Amy Orr-Ewing: Yeah, well, for me, as a follower of Jesus, I think his model is the most helpful, and in the New Testament, he kind of envisages forgiveness using the language of debt.

[00:08:46] So in, in the sort of mindset of Jesus, forgiveness isn’t about a- Denial of wrongdoing or sort of pretense that I’m okay now and I don’t feel anything about what’s happened to me. Forgiveness is basically the cancellation of a debt with the cost of that cancellation being borne by someone in a real way, and that might be being borne by the person who forgives, who releases the debt.

[00:09:13] But for a Christian, there’s another dimension to it because the death of Christ is this ultimate payment of debt for the sins of the world. So if I, as a Christian, forgive someone who’s harmed me, I’m receiving a grace from outside of myself, which was won by Christ at the cr- on the cross, and empowering me to then offer that grace, but it’s a power outside of myself.

[00:09:39] It’s not something I could really muster up for, for, for myself. So the cost of forgiveness is not sort of borne through sheer willpower, but through, um, the person of Jesus and his action in history.

John Dickson (Studio)

The Oxford English Dictionary defines the word forgive as to remit a debt, to give up resentment or claim to requital for, pardon an offense.

It sounds pretty similar to the Christian idea we just heard from Amy because actually the whole concept of forgiveness in our culture anyway has sort of come from Jesus. The 20th-century secular philosopher Hannah Arendt wrote these words: “The discoverer of the role of forgiveness in the realm of human affairs was Jesus of Nazareth.

The fact that he made this discovery in a religious context and articulated it in religious language is no reason to take it any less seriously in a strictly secular sense.” I sort of agree with this. Um, the ancient Greco-Roman world wasn’t entirely devoid of the concept of forgiveness. It’s not really that Jesus discovered forgiveness.

The language existed long before Christianity. In ancient Greek, aphesis just means to release, uh, to let go of a debt or obligation. In Latin, remissio sort of means to send something back and came to mean to send someone away, uh, free of their obligation to you. So the concept is definitely there in the classical Greco-Roman world.

But I do think most classicists would agree that the Greeks and Romans also had a much higher acceptance of revenge, retaliation, and even blood feuds as honorable responses to wrongdoing. Greco-Roman culture therefore had this real tension between the virtue of clemency and the virtue of revenge. So Christianity didn’t invent forgiveness.

What it did was strip revenge of moral prestige. Jesus forbade personal vengeance and commanded the love of enemies, Matthew 5, Luke 6, bunch of other places. The apostles repeated the theme, like Romans 12 is replete, uh, with these statements from the Apostle Paul, “Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Never avenge yourselves.

Overcome evil with good.” So the odd thing about Christianity isn’t that it discovered forgiveness, it’s that it dethroned revenge. And once revenge was no longer considered honorable, forgiveness stood out as the higher virtue

A few years ago, I interviewed Tyler VanderWeele, an epidemiologist and statistician from Harvard University, about the growing body of evidence that suggests religion is actually good for you, your mental health and your physical health. And actually, there’s quite a bit of research on the benefits of forgiveness.

[00:13:25] John Dickson: I want to ask you about forgiveness, uh, as a public health issue. This is something that you have claimed. Uh, I wanna hear about it.

Tyler VanderWeele:Yeah. So, um, now over the last, uh, 30 years or so, researchers, ma-many of whom come from, from clinical psychology, uh, have been trying to empirically study, uh, forgiveness, uh, the consequences of forgiveness, the consequences of lack of forgiveness, um, and how to promote, uh, forgiveness.

[00:13:59] The evidence has increased over the, the years that, um, that forgiveness is– certainly contributes to, um, to mental health. It, it lowers depression, it, it lowers anxiety, it promotes hope. Um, and, and some indication, though evidence is, is less clear, uh, that it, it also contributes t-to physical health. Um, and models of forgiveness to, to promote, uh, forgiveness have, have been developed.

[00:14:30] Um, one prominent model that, that we’ve looked at is the REACH model, where each letter of REACH stands for a part of the process. Uh, R, recall the, the hurt. E, empathize with the offender, try to understand the offender’s perspective without justifying their action or denying, you know, your feelings, but understand the offender.

[00:14:49] Um, A, uh, altruistic gift, realizing that forgiveness is something you can give or, or withhold. Um, C, commit, make a decision to, to forgive. If possible, do so publicly. And H, hold onto that forgiveness, realizing that, you know, the emotions are gonna come and, and go. And, um, uh, and these, these models have been, uh, developed into clinical interventions to help people who– to forgive who are struggling with forgiveness.

[00:15:17] Uh, they’ve been tested in randomized trials, um, and have been found in randomized trials to be effective at reducing depression and anxiety and improving hope, in addition to, uh, promoting, uh, forgiveness. And so in that regard, I think an argument can be made that forgiveness is in fact a public health issue.

John Dickson (Studio)

Tyler and his team at Harvard have since published the results of that study. Over 4,500 participants in high-conflict countries like South Africa, Colombia, and Ukraine tested out the REACH approach, and the results were overwhelmingly positive. We’re gonna put that in the show notes for you.

John Dickson: People say, um, forgiving others is, is good for you, you know?Mm. Good for society. Uh, and there are all sorts of studies that bear that out. So, um, is it really just therapy? You know, self-help?

Amy Orr-Ewing: One of the things that I found really interesting whilst researching this and, and, you know, looking into it more, more deeply, you know, read quite a lot of the psychological literature around forgiveness and predominantly, um, today, scientists sort of would focus on the positive benefits to the person who forgives, both in terms of mental health, relief of depression, but also more broadly a kind of relief of, um, physiological, uh, symptoms and diseases, even things like heart disease impacted by forgiveness.

[00:16:58] There’s a low recurrence of it where people practice forgiveness. So for me as a Christian, it’s not a surprise that, um, this practice actually has a really positive impact on a whole human being. It, it, it doesn’t surprise me that something that Jesus encourages us to do has this benefit. But that isn’t necessarily why we do it.

[00:17:23] You know, it’s like- Mm-hmm … it, it, it, it occurs. It’s something that, that is a kind of upside to forgiveness. Um, but it’s not merely a psychological phenomenon. There’s something much more profound going on and, you know, there are different models of forgiveness, of course. You know, one, one way of putting it that I like to think, I, I have, um, three sons, so this is not a film which is ever watched in our household, but you know the, the Disney film Frozen, where Elsa, the main character, sort of sings to the universe, “Let it go.”

[00:17:56] You know, this idea that forgiveness is just releasing our pain to the universe. That’s not a, a Christian model of forgiveness. Mm. A Christian model of forgiveness says that, um, when wrongdoing has happened, when hurt and harm have occurred, that actually matters at a really profound level because the person who’s experienced that harm was made in the image of God.

[00:18:19] And so the wound is, yes, psychological, yes, physiological, but it’s also spiritual. And so, um, forgiveness releases us on, you know, multilayered dimension to, to, um, live in health and live in goodness, um, but with a help from outside of ourselves, a sort of divine intervention. Um, I did also notice though, in the psychological literature, there’s this whole sort of strand of thought that talks about forgiveness as actually potentially harmful.

[00:18:55] And I think it’s really honest when we’re writing about these things to, you know, not straw man that, to actually engage with that potential idea

John Dickson (Studio)

I’m not at all surprised that forgiveness helps the person doing the forgiving. I see all of the biblical virtues as the shape of the life we’re all intended for.

So following them is a bit like following the manufacturer’s instructions. It’s usually the best policy for life. But the Bible never speaks about forgiveness in this way, as something that’s helpful for you. The biblical focus isn’t therapeutic, it’s theological and sociological. It’s theological in the sense that when you know that the Creator is forgiving, it just makes sense to be a forgiving person.

And of course, forgiveness is a powerful social unifier. It’s a virtue that has the potential to end the cycle of recrimination, and it can foster peace. Often the New Testament puts these two things together, the theological and the social. One of my favorite passages in the whole Bible, I must have preached on it 50 times at weddings over the years , is in Colossians chapter 3 where the Apostle Paul writes these words: “Clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience. Bear with one another and if anyone has a complaint against another, forgive each other. Just as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive.”

I love it. But after the break, we’re gonna consider the possibility that forgiveness in human relationships can actually be harmful.

BREAK

MEDIA: Rachael Denhollander victim statement

Larry is a hardened and determined sexual predator.

I know this firsthand. At age 15, when I suffered from chronic back pain, Larry sexually assaulted me repeatedly under the guise of medical treatment for nearly a year.

John Dickson (Studio)

That’s Rachael Denhollander making a victim statement in a Michigan courtroom back in 2018 before the prison sentence of Dr. Larry Nassar.

Nassar had been the team doctor for the American gymnastics squad and was convicted of multiple counts of criminal sexual misconduct against girls in his care under the guise of medical treatment and examination, and Rachael was one of his victims.

MEDIA: Rachael Denhollander victim statement

I pray you experience the soul-crushing weight of guilt so that you may someday experience true repentance and true forgiveness from God, which you need far more than forgiveness from me, though I extend that to you as well Judge Aquilina, I plead with you as you deliberate the sentence to give Larry, send a message that these victims are worth everything.

[00:21:58] In order to meet both the goals of this court, I plead with you to impose the maximum sentence under the plea agreement because everything is what these survivors are worth. Thank you.

John Dickson (Studio)

After that court hearing, Rachael’s statement made headlines around the world, and a big deal was made of her offer to extend forgiveness to Nasser.

And she later told Christianity Today that she was surprised how publications emphasized forgiveness without also acknowledging her pursuit of justice. She had, in fact, asked for the maximum sentence for Nasser. Yet forgiveness was the only message people latched onto. Denhollander argues that by pulling forgiveness and justice apart, we actually lose the full picture of what the Bible says about both, and it’s how forgiveness can be weaponized by abusers and by those who wanna protect them.

“Shouldn’t you just forgive? Isn’t that what Jesus said?” You can see the danger.

Amy Orr-Ewing: As I sort of dug into that and thought about it, ’cause it’s obviously really challenging to me as a Christian- Mm … that forgiveness could be harmful to the person who forgives. There were two factors which would influence that.

[00:23:17] Um, the first factor was that, um, if forgiveness was sort of coerced in any way, and that could be, um, because you’re in a community that sort of forces you to forgive, like you’re a pariah if you don’t forgive. Mm. Um, it could be that, um, your abuser or oppressor is sort of demanding forgiveness without there being a full accounting of the harm that’s happened.

[00:23:47] But that kind of forgiveness that is in any way the result of coercion rather than the free choice of the person can end up having kind of harmful b- impact on the forgiver. Mm. And the second way in which forgiveness could be harmful to a person is if it removed the experience of what’s called effective injustice, the idea that we actually feel the reality of the harm that’s happened to us.

[00:24:17] So if we’re sort of rushed into immediate forgiveness without an actual appraisal that, um, the harm we’ve experienced really hurts, really matters, and was really wrong, if you- if those steps are kind of, you know, not, not followed, then forgiveness is harmful. So I found it interesting because in neither of those cases it

[00:24:40] is, is that what Jesus is calling us to? You know, we have all this literature in the Bible which you know, deeply engages with the rage we might feel when we suffer, including rage against God. Um, whether that’s Lamentations or the imprecatory Psalms, you know, the, the, this languish, giving voice, um, to human beings who are in absolute despair or agony, um, due to what they’ve experienced.

[00:25:09] So, um, and then also that sense that, that we’re not coerced into this. This is something that a disciple of Jesus who wants to follow him, um, is invited into out of the overflow of the forgiveness we’ve received

John Dickson: Must be a fine line though. Um, I mean, you answered one of the questions I was gonna ask you about-

[00:25:30] whether forgiveness can, can harm people. Yeah. Um, but there must be this, I don’t know, like in the Christian community, um, a subliminal expectation- Yeah … that if you’ve been harmed, you’ve been abused, then you have to forgive your abuser. Um- Yeah … without, you know- And I think that- … being forced to do it.

[00:25:50] Yeah. You, you could nonetheless be harmed by that, I imagine.

Amy Orr-Ewing: Be feeling like you’re coerced into some way or rushed into it. And also, I think sometimes a huge category mistake is made where forgiveness is actually weaponized against the victim, where, um, the Christian community make an equation between the sexual abuse or domestic violence or whatever the harm is that has occurred to the victim.

[00:26:16] They make an equation between that and then the victim’s unwillingness to forgive, or, you know, in the perception of the community to not forgive immediately or quickly enough. Mm. And, and that’s one of the reasons I wanted to write this, because, um, I honestly believe that Christian forgiveness and the possibility of grace is desperately needed in our culture.

[00:26:40] Whether we look at, you know, politics, whether we look at the rise of nationalism, whether we look at, you know, broken families and the sort of collateral damage and fallout of, of devastating relational breakdowns. Forgiveness is a sort of superpower and gift to any culture. But the danger is that as the church, it’s sometimes been misused and weaponized, and I think one of the reasons that it’s less talked about and less practiced even within Christian communities is because of that, so it’s really important we address that as well, that harm.

[00:27:20] John Dickson: Yeah. Um, some would sort of say the church is no good at this forgiveness. Mm. Um, the church does have a reputation sometimes for being harsh, punitive, not- Mm … forgiving. Uh, do you f- do you feel that, uh, the weight of that criticism?

Amy Orr-Ewing: Well, it’s interesting. Um, obviously if we look back in history, I think that that could be a valid critique, but I feel like in the last sort of 30 years, um, the church in the West and probably the church sort of circles that I would know the most, have actually leaned more into postmodernism and into the idea of, um, you know, not wanting to be judgmental or bigoted.

[00:28:11] And one of then the problems with the Christian witness of not really caring about harm enough. So I was actually really personally confronted with this on campus, um- You know, as part of my work in public Christianity, I would often be talking to undergraduates in, you know, universities around the world.

[00:28:32] And during the kind of, um, you know, between sort of 2017 and 2022, the, the rise of that movement of, you know, we have to tear down the statues of every oppressor from history, um, the rise of the sort of justice movements amongst young people, the, the major argument against the Christian faith that I experienced articulated by people coming from that mindset, m- you know, more from the left, was this idea that, um, we don’t care about harm and injustice enough because forgiving is letting people off.

[00:29:12] Yeah. And a genuine justice movement would never do that because to let someone off would be to minimize harm, abuse, whether that’s slavery or homophobia or colonization or, you know, racism or whatever the h- the, you know, the harms, uh, that one cares about are. And so I found myself really confronted with that idea that not only is Christianity not judgmental, the perception amongst a, a generation of young people was we don’t actually care about harm and injustice.

[00:29:46] And that’s one of the reasons, that’s one of the things that sort of set me on the path of writing this book. Would it be possible to have the kind of forgiveness which offered us, you know, grace, redemption, healing, and all these kind of positives that are, are potet- that are potentially there and associated with forgiveness?

[00:30:08] Could it be possible to have that without being required to minimize or play down the harm that’s happened and to sort of collude with suppressing injustice?

MEDIA: Charleston shooting victims at bond hearing of Dylann Roof

Is there a representative of any of the family that would be here that wish to st- make a statement before this court before I post or set the bond?

[00:30:30] You are representing the family of Ethel Lance, is that correct? Yes, I am. And you are whom, ma’am? The daughter. The daughter. I’m listening, and you can talk to me. I just want everybody to know, to you, I forgive you. You took something very precious away from me. I will never talk to her ever again. I will never be able to hold her again.

[00:30:58] But I forgive you. And have mercy on your soul You hurt me. You hurt a lot of people. But God forgive you, and I forgive you Representative of the family of Myra Thompson. You know, I forgive you and my family forgive you. But we would like you to take this opportunity to repent. Repent. Confess Give your life to the one who matters the most, Christ, so that he can change it and change your ways no matter what happened to you and you’ll be okay.

[00:31:47] Do that, and you’ll be better off than what you are right now.

John Dickson (Studio)

That’s a recording from 2015 as families of the victims of the Charleston shooting at Emmanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church stood to address the shooter, white supremacist Dylann Roof. It was just two days after Roof had opened fire during a Bible study meeting at their church, and he killed nine Black worshipers.

[00:32:17] President Barack Obama praised the spirit of forgiveness shown by the families, but others expressed concern that rushing to forgive the wrongdoer risked papering over the systemic injustice at the core of this. Commentators like Roxane Gay in The New York Times wrote this, “The dominant media narrative vigorously embraced the notion of forgiveness, seeming to believe that if we forgive, we have somehow found a way to make sense of the incomprehensible.”

[00:32:54] Then there’s Malcolm Graham. He’s the brother of Cynthia Hurd, one of the slain victims. Just a few weeks ago, he said, so this is 11 years after the shooting, that he does not forgive.

MEDIA: Malcolm Graham

My own personal conviction, I, I, I didn’t forgive. I don’t forgive today. Um, you can’t forgive hatred, racism, and discrimination, uh, 400 years of that.

[00:33:18] Cynthia died, uh, the way so many African Americans died, at the hands of someone who didn’t like the way we looked, um, our, our existence, our, our, our being.

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John Dickson: This was my next question, Amy. So-

Amy Orr-Ewing: Yeah. Oh, sorry.

John Dickson: You just solved it for me. No, no, you solved it for me. Well, I think- When we forgive someone, are we in a sense devaluing justice?

[00:33:39] That’s the question.

Amy Orr-Ewing: Mm. Yeah. Well, I think if your, if your definition of forgiveness is let it go, play a psychological trick on yourself that the harm that occurred to you no longer hurts, doesn’t matter, or in some way wasn’t wrong. So if we begin at the idea of forgiveness by in some way negating either, um, the moral impact of the act or in some way minimizing the pain or dignity of the person who’s been harmed, then I think You know, that kind of forgiveness actually can diminish and can end up being wea- weaponized.

[00:34:28] But the crucial thing about Christian forgiveness is that it begins with, uh, something called repentance and of- and this other word confession. You know, sh- where the New Testament talks about confessing our sins and the idea then of repentance. So confession would be like an articulation, an ownership, a verbal owning up, and repentance, the New Testament idea, is metanoia.

[00:34:51] That’s a sort of change of mind or change of heart leading to a, a change of behavior. Um, I think one of the most powerful kind of models of repentance we see in the New Testament is a person Jesus commends, Zacchaeus, the, the tax collector, who doesn’t just say, “Oh, I’m sorry your feelings were hurt by, you know, my scamming of you.”

[00:35:15] He, he owns up that what he did was wrong, and then the change of heart is demonstrated in a change of behavior. He doesn’t just pay back, he pays back many times more than, than he took.

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READING

Jesus entered Jericho and was passing through. A man was there by the name of Zacchaeus. He was a chief tax collector and was wealthy.

He wanted to see who Jesus was, but because he was short, he could not see over the crowd. So he ran ahead and climbed a sycamore fig tree to see Him, since Jesus was coming that way. When Jesus reached the spot, He looked up and said to him, “Zacchaeus, come down immediately. I must stay at your house today.”

So he came down at once and welcomed Him gladly. All the people saw this and began to mutter, “He has gone to be the guest of a sinner.” But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, “Look, Lord, here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.”

The Gospel of Luke, chapter 19

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Amy Orr-Ewing: And so if we skip the step of saying that harm and moral wrongdoing matter that they really matter, and within a Christian framework, they will ultimately be judged by a higher authority than us. There’s a sort of awesomeness to this and also harm and moral wrongdoing really matter at more than a sort of biological or physiological level.

[00:36:52] Because if it’s true that a human being is made in the image of God, then a wound, you know, carried by a person made in the image of God has a sort of transcendent dimension to it. So forgiveness begins with confession and repentance, and that’s true both in our relationship with God when we receive forgiveness from him.

[00:37:16] You know, he– the, the model isn’t that Jesus died for the sins of the world and therefore everyone is just forgiven, whether they acknowledge anything or not. We’re invited to believe that this is true, to confess, to repent, and then kind of receive that forgiveness. And in the same way, when we practice forgiveness, um, you know, it’s important that what we’re doing is, is we’re saying sin, um, wrongdoing, harm have actually occurred, and they do matter.

[00:37:46] And you know, so the debt that is being paid here is a real thing, and we’re not trying to just kind of wipe this away with a trick of the mind. And that’s why the historic crucifixion of Jesus is also important because there’s a very real sense in which if someone does confess and repent, they are actually forgiven at a kind of cosmological level, you know, at a, at a deep theological, profound level.

[00:38:16] Because the death of Christ in history is just not an ordinary, you know, or tragic, sad death of a good person. It’s a sacrificial death which upholds the value of every person harmed and kind of wins this possibility of forgiveness.

John Dickson (Studio)

Let’s press pause. I’ve got a five-minute Jesus for you Forgiveness can change our lives and entire cultures, and I’m gonna give you an amazing example of this in a second But what did Jesus actually say on this topic?

Quite a bit. He usually tied social forgiveness, our forgiving other people, to theological forgiveness, God forgiving us. You see this in the famous Lord’s Prayer, or Our Father, the line, “Forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us.” From the first century, traditional Christians have prayed this prayer every single day.

So that line is this potent daily reminder of the centrality of forgiveness in the Christian worldview. Certainly nothing like that was ever proposed in the Greco-Roman world. It’s also the focus of some of Jesus’ famous parables, like the unforgiving servant in Matthew chapter 18. A bit of context matters here, ’cause early in Matthew chapter 18, Jesus has been telling his students about the importance of trying to win over those who have wronged you.

And he says, “If your brother or sister sins against you, go and point out the fault when the two of you are alone. If you are listened to, you have regained that one.” And then he gives some really good escalation advice if the wrongdoer refuses to listen. You can read that for yourself in Matthew 18. But then hearing this teaching, good old foot-in-mouth, whom we call the Apostle Peter, pipes up and asks, “Lord, if my brother or sister sins against me, how often should I forgive?

[00:40:30] As many as seven times?” Jesus said to him, “Not seven times, but I tell you 77 times.” That’s when Jesus offers one of the clearest instructions about forgiveness ever made. And here again, we see the connection between theology, God’s forgiveness, and sociology, our forgiving others. Have a listen The kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants.

As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand bags of gold was brought to him. Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he, his wife and children, and all that he had be sold to repay the debt. At this, the servant fell on his knees before him. “Be patient with me,” he begged, “and I will pay back everything.”

The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt, and let him go. But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred silver coins. He grabbed him and began to choke him. “Pay back what you owe me!” he demanded. His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, “Be patient with me, and I will pay it back.”

[00:41:56] But he refused. Instead, he had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. When the other servants saw what had happened, they were outraged and went and told their master everything that had happened. Then the master called the servant in. “You wicked servant,” he said, “I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to.

Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?” The Gospel of Matthew, chapter 18 If God forgives us when we ask, Jesus is saying, surely we should forgive others when they ask. Or over in the Gospel of Luke chapter seventeen, we find the same theme in different words. Jesus said, “If your brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them, and if they repent, forgive them, even if they sin against you seven times in a day and seven times come back to you, saying, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive them.”

Now later in the episode, Amy Orr-Ewing explains why she thinks we can forgive others even if they don’t repent, even if they don’t ask for mercy, such as in the parable. She and I differ a little bit on that. But what can’t be disputed is that Jesus’ teaching on forgiveness can transform not only individual human relationships, but entire civilizations.

I’ll never forget our episodes on the Vikings. That’s episodes 65 and 66. One of our expert guests said that Christ’s teaching about forgiveness was one of the factors in the conversion of Norse culture. Um, famously, the Vikings prized vengeance as a positive good, a little bit like the Greco-Roman world.

Laments for the dead in song and inscriptions often serve the purpose of reminding relatives and friends about their duty to take revenge for the dead loved one. It’s one of the key themes in the great Nile Saga, the epic tale of generations of escalating Viking violence in Iceland. But this saga also tells of the conversion of the Vikings to Christianity, and one of its themes is forgiveness.

For those episodes, we interviewed Michael Drout, who’s a Viking specialist at Wheaton College, Massachusetts. Nothing to do with Wheaton College, Illinois, where I work. He pointed out that by the end of the Nile Saga, the mood is, “We’re tired of it. We’re disgusted with all the violence and the murdering.

[00:44:48] We are going to become Christian.” The Vikings, he said, saw Christianity as a way out with honor, because forgiving someone who has done something terrible to you, he says, is one of the best things you can do as a Christian, as opposed to the old Norse system where that was a cowardly thing. Now, there’s some archeological evidence of this Christian notion of grace taking hold in Scandinavia.

[00:45:18] Often, runic funerary inscriptions urged friends and relatives, as I said earlier, to take revenge on behalf of the departed loved one. But in the period of Christianization, we suddenly begin to find inscriptions with a completely different motif. We’ve found at least 15 inscriptions with this formula: May God help his soul better than he deserves Anne Sophie Gruslund of the Uppsala University in Sweden says that this formula likely alludes to the grace of God She agrees with Michael Draught that this message of forgiveness was a factor in Viking transformation Who would have predicted that the crucified Jesus would conquer Odin, Thor, and the gang through a message of forgiveness You can press play now.

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MEDIA – Mushroom Killer, Channel 7

If you’re following the case of mushroom killer Erin Patterson, I want to bring you a brief update from inside the courtroom where she’s been having day one of her pre-sentence hearing.

[00:46:31] Now, the sole survivor of that fatal mushroom lunch, Pastor

[00:46:41] Ian Wilkinson, has actually made a stunning offer of forgiveness to Erin Patterson. He said that he now wants her to be the victim of his kindness. He no longer wants to be a victim of her crimes. He has, though, said that he still calls for justice for those other victims.

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John Dickson (Studio)

That’s a Channel Seven Australia news report during the trial of the now infamous mushroom killer, Erin Patterson. Patterson was convicted of murdering three relatives and attempting to murder a fourth after serving a beef Wellington laced with deadly death cap mushrooms at a family lunch in twenty twenty-three. The sole survivor was a Baptist minister, Ian Wilkinson. His wife, Heather, died along with Heather’s sister, Gayle, and her husband, Don.

[00:47:28] Before Erin Patterson was sentenced, Ian gave a victim impact statement. “Erin has brought deep sorrow and grief into my life and the lives of many others. The ripples spread out through family, friends, our church congregation, the local community, and beyond. In regard to the many harms done to me, I make an offer of forgiveness to Erin.

[00:47:56] I say harms done to me advisedly. I have no power or responsibility to forgive harms done to others. In regards to the murder of Heather, Gayle, and Don, I am compelled to seek justice. However, I encourage Erin to receive my offer of forgiveness for those harms done to me with full confession and repentance.

[00:48:23] I bear her no ill will.”

Erin Patterson didn’t ask for forgiveness. She pleaded not guilty at her trial and showed zero remorse. So what does it mean for Wilkinson to make an offer of forgiveness, as he put it? Is the offer of forgiveness different from actual forgiveness? Can you forgive someone who shows no remorse and doesn’t wanna be forgiven?

[00:48:53] This is a bit of a theological debate.

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John Dickson: So that raises the question, uh, th- that’s quite controversial in Christian- Yeah … circles. Yeah. Uh, can you really forgive someone who int- isn’t interested in your forgiveness- Yeah … who doesn’t change their life? Is forgiveness- Yeah … even the right word to use in that context?

[00:49:12] Amy Orr-Ewing: Yeah. I think there’s a lot of confusion between forgiveness and reconciliation, and honestly, John, there are different models of this, um, of, of how this actually works. I can share with you what, how I think this works in the New Testament.

John Dickson: Yeah. No, I’m interested- Um- … because you just said God’s forgiveness works- Yeah

[00:49:32] uh, because of Christ’s death, yes. Yeah. But when we come to him in metanoia- Yes, exactly … uh, seeking his forgiveness. Yeah. Okay, if that’s the model, how does that relate to- Yeah, so there would be- … someone who’s an abuser, who has no interest- Yeah … in your forgiveness?

Amy Orr-Ewing: Yeah. So, um, you know, there, there, there are kind of different models of this.

[00:49:51] Let me just sketch out a couple that I think aren’t quite right, but are quite commonly held in the church. Um, so the first model would be that- We are, um, required as followers of Jesus, um, to forgive people regardless of whether they confess or repent, and that forgiveness is to be demonstrated and actualized in that person having total access to our lives and a sort of restoration of, of harmony in that relationship.

[00:50:25] So there’s an equation of forgiveness and, um, reconciliation kind of rolled into one. One of the problems with that model is that where that model has been taught, women who’ve experienced domestic violence have been told, you

[00:50:42] know, “Forgive your husband,” and that means stay in the marriage and just keep, keep taking it. Mm. Um, now, the challenge I think to that model is that that is not how God forgives us. Like, we are invited to receive the forgiveness of Christ through confession and repentance. Second model, which I think is more popular in, in reformed circles and is experiences, experiencing a kind of, um, renaissance at the moment, is the idea that as Christians we don’t forgive anyone until they confess and, you know, repent to us.

[00:51:22] Now, one of the problems with that is that it requires us, in a way, to know the secrets of a person’s heart to discern whether that person has really repented and confessed. And it also seems to fly a little bit in the face of the liberality of Jesus’ teaching on discip- his disciples forgiving.

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John Dickson (Studio)

This is what you might call conditional forgiveness.

Some call it transactional forgiveness, which has a pretty negative connotation. Critics argue that this way of thinking about the matter lacks generosity. Some even see it as a kind of power play, making someone grovel and beg before you deign to offer them pardon. So Amy proposes a third way.

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Amy Orr-Ewing: So I think, um, a th- a third model which makes quite a clear distinction between forgiveness and reconciliation is helpful here.

[00:52:19] And here’s, here’s the model. And the, the analogy I would use is if you’re, you know, g- able to buy a house, I’m not actually quite sure how it works in Australia. I know you’ve got listeners all over the world, but- It’s just hard … yeah, in That’s all you need to know. Yeah, it’s hard everywhere, isn’t it? So just like Bank of Mom and Dad, question mark, um, it’s kind of impossible.

[00:52:40] But let’s imagine a world where it’s possible to buy a house, and you, you know, usually most people can’t pay the full price in cash. So they might have saved a deposit or been given some money towards a deposit from parents. And so, you know, you’ve got that deposit, then you go to the bank and you get the, the mortgage funds, which cov- covers the distance between what you can afford and what the price is.

[00:53:05] Now, what happens when you buy a house in America is that money goes into an escrow. In Britain, it goes into, like, the solicitor’s account, like the attorney’s account. Your, so your l- your lawyer looks after it. And then the various paperwork and transactions happen, and only when completion occurs and the keys and deeds are handed to the solicitor are the funds released to the seller.

[00:53:28] So in this analogy, um, what I think is happening i- is that as Christians And the decision to follow Jesus and the decision to walk in the way of his teaching may well involve, will involve us making a, a, a decision to step into forgiving. Remember, recognizing a debt has occurred, a loss has occurred, and that debt needs to be covered.

[00:53:58] That’s what forgiveness actually is. So, um, a, a Christian will, will be wanting to make a decision to forgive. I think that represents the deposit. The mortgage funds, if you like, that big distance between our capacity as a human being to cover the debt owed to us, particularly where there’s an egregious harm or moral wrongdoing we’ve experienced, that is covered by something external to us, the death of Jesus Christ in history, his sacrifice on the cross.

[00:54:29] And so as a Christian, I put those funds into the account. I’m choosing and praying for, for that help to be able to forgive, and I’m experiencing some kind of release and benefit through doing that. That does not mean that the sale has gone through on the other side relationally, though. Actually, um, you know, something needs to occur in the heart of the other person if a reconciliation is going to be possible.

[00:55:01] So it can be true that I have forgiven, but that that doesn’t feel fully actualized this side, side of eternity and in my r- experience of every relationship. And it may be that confession, repentance, it may be that if there’s been a crime committed, the person who’s committed that crime needs to serve a prison sentence for that or pay a civil penalty for that crime that’s occurred, and none of that is in contradiction with me forgiving.

[00:55:33] And so, um, it could be the case that as a Christian, you know, when I forgive, some of those relationships are, you know, beautifully, stunningly restored, and there’s reconciliation and repentance and confession, and sometimes there’s wrong on both sides, and a relationship can be restored. But it may also be that as a Christian, I live in this sort of sphere of not fully realized reconciliation in every situation.

[00:56:07] John Dickson: Do you mind if I push back a bit? Please do. Um. Yeah. So I’m just trying to work out how the view you just described as a third view is any different from the first view. Um, because in the end, you, y- you’re not saying that we should just be ready to forgive when the person seeks forgiveness, like that the readiness is what God requires.

[00:56:30] Yeah. You’re saying actually in some sense you deposit the forgiveness. Well, that’s what view one also said.

Amy Orr-Ewing: The, the fundamental difference I think between what I’m proposing and the first view is the equation of forgiveness with reconciliation, and the confusion that if I’ve forgiven someone, they then have full access to my life, and that reconciliation on my side is fully realized Which without confession and repentance and sometimes restitution and, you know, sometimes a penalty for a crime, that isn’t gonna be possible.

[00:57:14] Um, so for me, I think that’s the, that’s the most kind of potential for harm that exists within the Church, and particularly for historically, for, for women have predominantly been those who suffered that, and those who’ve been sexually abused, which is obviously men as well. Um, in terms of sort of the framing of it more theologically, um, my understanding of this would sit within this idea, and I think Bonhoeffer is really helpful on this as well, this idea of our forgiveness as Christians operates within a framework where God is actually the ultimate judge, and there is a real divine judgment that will, that will happen one day.

[00:58:03] And so, um, there are really two possibilities when I follow the teaching of Jesus, who calls me to love my enemies and forgive my debtors. Um, what I’m doing is I’m trusting that ultimately justice will be done in one of two ways. The debt that has occurred and the harm that has occurred will be paid for in an ultimate way, and it will either be paid through the death of the Son of God in history if the person repents and believes and accepts that sacrificial death by Jesus, or it will be paid when we all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

[00:58:50] And that harm that has occurred will ultimately be judged by God. So when I forgive, I’m forgiving that I’m trusting in God that in one of two ways ultimate justice will be done. And so that releases me. There’s another dimension to what forgiveness is. You think about forgiveness as releasing the debt.

[00:59:15] Forgiveness in the life of the Christian is being released from the impetus to get justice for what happened to me. So I can live with a posture of trust that either way the debt will be paid in a way that does not minimize the harm, either through the death of the Son of God in history or through the ultimate judgment that is to come.

[00:59:39] So I think that is a really important theological framing

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John Dickson (Studio)

So let me try and recap. Uh, view one uh grants abusers the full forgiveness and reconciliation whether or not they’re remorseful. View two is described as transactional. Um, it withholds forgiveness like a prize until the person begs. Um, that’s the caricature of it anyway.

Uh, view three, Amy’s view, is that while reconciliation with the wrongdoer might be impossible until they’re remorseful, uh, we nonetheless deposit our own forgiveness into an account, as it were, so that gradually we get to the point where we have fully forgiven them in our heart, whether or not the person wants that forgiveness.

I hold a fourth view, uh, which really is a version of view number two. I see forgiveness as letting go of a debt when asked. It’s the objective release of the moral debt or obligation that a wrongdoer owes the person wronged. Um, in my view, the modern discussion about forgiveness has become too internalized in a way that’s not really there in the Bible, um, in the way that moderns often psychologize many things.

As a result, forgiveness has come to refer to a subjective state of my letting go of various, uh, feelings. I don’t think that’s what the word forgiveness means, um, in the New Testament. Uh, that’s a good thing. It, it’s the personal emotional management. Fine. Great. Um, and to be clear, uh, Jesus does teach that we should refuse bitterness toward our enemies, um, and revenge.

Uh, he in fact calls us to love our enemies, and that means to will the good for our enemies. I even think that part of wishing the good toward the wrongdoer is hoping that they’ll come to acknowledge their wrongdoing and experience our objective forgiveness and perhaps even reconciliation. But being open to all of that, um, wishing for it, is not the same thing as forgiveness.

Forgiveness is not my state of mind. It’s the objective release of the moral debt that the wrongdoer owes to the wronged, and that objective reality can only happen when the wrongdoer seeks to be released from their debt by acknowledging it to the person they’ve wronged. This seems to be the explicit teaching of Jesus, um, certainly in the famous parable of the unforgiving servant in Matthew 18 that I mentioned earlier.

Um, it’s the plea for mercy that elicits forgiveness, or in the case of the unforgiving servant, uh, it’s the plea for mercy that elicits unforgiveness. Um, or as Jesus put it in Luke chapter 17, “Even if your brother or sister sins against you seven times a day,” and then he says, “and seven times comes back to you saying, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive them,” he says.

After all, that’s how God’s forgiveness works, right? God doesn’t just forgive people who don’t want His forgiveness, who don’t acknowledge they’re wrong. And that’s not because God is a bully trying to play games with us. It’s because while God loves us while we’re still opposed to Him, His forgiveness is something different.

His forgiveness is the objective reality of Him releasing us from our moral debt to Him when we turn to Him. Ditto our forgiveness of others, which in the New Testament is nearly always paired with divine forgiveness. Um, one is the reflection of the other, just as the Apostle Paul, uh, said in Colossians 3, “Forgive others just as the Lord has forgiven you.”

So here’s what I wanna say, um, to those who have been deeply wronged by others, by people who even refuse to admit fault. I think you’re right to feel that this person has an ongoing moral debt toward you. Christ does ask you to refuse revenge and bitterness. Uh, even, you know, will the person’s good, and that’s gonna be hard enough, right?

But Christ doesn’t expect you to release the wrongdoer from their moral debt to you until they ask for it. And that’s when, hopefully, slowly, you forgive.

But whichever model of forgiveness you find most compelling, there’s, there’s no doubt that forgiveness itself is transformative, both at the level of personal relationships, but also at the level of civilization, whether the medieval Viking culture transformed by the idea of forgiveness or contemporary culture.

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MEDIA: Desmond Tutu

[01:05:23] Desmond Tutu: It’s like, it’s like, it’s like opening a window. You see, f- forgiveness can be likened to the fresh air that is outside or the sunlight that is outside and, and, and you have a room and, and the, and the windows are closed, and the curtains are drawn.

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John Dickson (Studio)

That’s the distinctive voice of the South African Anglican Archbishop Desmond Tutu.

In 1995, Tutu led the country’s Truth and Reconciliation Commission, set up to investigate allegations of human rights abuses during the apartheid era. The commission wrestled with demands for accountability, amnesty, and reparations from years of racial divisions in the country. And Tutu insisted that there would be no future for South Africa without forgiveness.

The commission offered amnesty and forgiveness for perpetrators of violence, Black or white, who publicly confessed what they had done during the apartheid years. He’s speaking here in 1999 with Bill Moyers, one of America’s most respected broadcast journalists, who passed away just last year.

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MEDIA: Desmond Tutu

Desmond Tutu: The wind is still out there.

[01:06:38] My forgiveness is still available to you, but it won’t find access until you open the window and the light streams in. You draw the curtains apart and the, and the fresh air comes in. You, by your contrition and confession, you’re saying, “I am sorry. Forgive me,” open, and my forgiveness enters your being.

[01:07:15] Bill Moyers: We’re talking here about genocide, torture. Are genocide and torture forgivable?

Desmond Tutu: As a Christian, you, you have to say, are there things that are unforgivable? I’m afraid we follow a Lord and Master who, at the point when they are crucifying him in the most painful way can say, “Pray for their forgiveness.” And we follow the one who says, “Forgive one another as God in Christ forgave you.”

[01:08:00] That is, for us, the paradigm. We may not always reach to that ideal, but that is the standard.

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John Dickson: Is there a moment when you know you’ve forgiven someone? Mm. Is it a psychological awakening? Some sort of satisfaction in your soul? Like, what is it?

Amy Orr-Ewing: Mm. That’s a really interesting question, and I think this probably differs from person to person, honestly.

[01:08:33] And I think it’s something that, um, is important that we don’t lay too much emphasis on the feeling. ‘Cause one of the things that happens, you know, particularly if, if you’ve experienced, you know, something very traumatic or absolutely egregious, ’cause there, there are lay- there are layers of things we need to forgive, right?

[01:08:57] There’s the sort of day-to-day kind of annoying thing in, in life and then, um, you know, there are the huge things, psychological torture, you know, different kinds of abuse which we, we might have experienced. And, um, I think f- I personally think forgiveness sits more within the decision category and the trust.

[01:09:24] Mm-hmm. Like, we trust Christ, and we lean on his work on the cross. Um, because humanly to sort of achieve this feat is, you know, really, really difficult, particularly if we’re not kind of trying to make the problem smaller or minimize the harm. Um, and, and I think as we, as we move out with decision and trust, for some of us feelings will follow more quickly than for others of us, and we’re actually all wired differently.

[01:09:59] But I think the teaching of Jesus places this less in the level of, you know, you, you feel the benefit of this great psy- ps- kind, psychological release, which obviously may well come and is a benefit in the literature, but, and more in the realm of, um, decision and, and trust. And, you know, the benefits of both of those things are ultimately felt for the majority of people.

[01:10:27] But if anyone listening to this sort of has this sneaking suspicion, because I sometimes remember or recall the profound devastating hurt I experienced, maybe I haven’t forgiven. Or if sometimes feelings of, you know- Anger or just e- passion arise about how awful what happened was, that, that doesn’t mean you haven’t forgiven or you’re not forgiving.

[01:10:59] Um, so I think in, in our, in our personal lives, it’s gonna look and feel different. So decision and trust, I think is more helpful than, you know, hanging it all on how we feel in any given moment. Yeah. Now, if my account of what forgiveness is, it goes back to Elsa and Frozen, you know, release it to the universe.

[01:11:23] This is primarily a psychological phenomenon of what’s going on in my head. Then when I don’t experience everything kind of working out perfectly, I can doubt whether I’ve actually forgiven. Um, and, and, and that’s where I think a lot of Christians actually live. You know, when I was writing this book, every person I talked to who was asking me, “Oh, what you’re writing on?”

[01:11:49] And I’d say, you know, “Forgiveness.” And my friends who didn’t have faith were really intrigued ’cause they know there’s this sort of bitterness in the culture. You know, there’s all this brokenness and pain, and they were intrigued. Every Christian sort of v- visibly recoiled and said, “Oh no, you know, I’m failing at forgiveness.

[01:12:12] I suppose I need to read that book. I’ve got this long list of people I haven’t forgiven.” And I think that’s a r- a really, um, big insight into where you sit as to what forgiveness is. So if you go with the escrow model, you can walk in that grace and freedom, which is something we receive from outside of ourselves, but also be realistic that sometimes relationships may take time, and we may be in this sphere of not fully realized reconciliation, but that doesn’t mean I haven’t forgiven, and it doesn’t mean that I haven’t received that grace to forgive

John Dickson: Yeah, I think that’s a good insight.

[01:12:55] Um, I imagine some people listening who don’t fully believe all the- Yeah … Christian theology that you’ve articulated, uh, they might be thinking, “Okay, sounds nice, but what is there in this for me?” Mm. Do you have to be a Christian in order to put this forgiveness equation together?

Amy Orr-Ewing: Mm. So I think forgiveness is one of the great gifts of the Christian faith, um, to the culture, let’s put it that way.

[01:13:28] So, um, I would possibly put it more in the sort of, you know, Tom Holland, Niall Ferguson sort of sphere, where if you are not a Christian and you’re listening to this, it, it could be of interest in sort of understanding how and why our culture is or has been the way it has been, um, and some of the benefits of that, of, you know, ex- of expecting the possibility of redemption, um, of upholding both justice and mercy as values that are not in conflict with each other, but ultimately are kind of complementary.

[01:14:12] Um, so I would be trying to make the case, I think, that, um, forgiveness is kind of actualized in the way that I’ve expressed it through this, this kind of theological framework, but it can still be of benefit to the culture. And where we see a culture sort of, you know, in a way turning, turning away from that, whether that’s cancel culture on the left or cruelty culture on the right, where there is this loss of, of grace, and this almost fetishizing of grievance and rage and victimhood, and holding onto that as a means of power, which I think we see on both the left and the right at the moment in, in politics.

[01:15:02] You can see how, how this great gift to the world of this concept of forgiveness that doesn’t minimize harm or moral wrongdoing could be really, really good for our society, even if you don’t actually believe the theological bit.

John Dickson: Amy O’Ewing, thank you so much for this conversation.

Amy Orr-Ewing: Thank you, John.

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John Dickson (Studio)

Undeceptions is hosted by me, John Dickson, produced by Kaley Payne, and directed and edited by Mark “Loki” Hadley. Sophie Hawkshaw is on socials and membership. Siobhan McGinnis is our online librarian. Lyndie Leviston remains my wonderful assistant. Santino Dimarco is chief finance and operations consultant, and our voice actors today were Yannick Lawry and Dakotah Love.

Alasdair Belling is writer and researcher, and I can’t believe that’s the last time I’m gonna say that. Al, Al.

I don’t know, did we have, like, 30 to 50 applications for Al’s position, Kaley?

Producer Kaley: So, so, so many. So many.

John Dickson: Some with PhDs. Quite seriously. Yeah. But you, mate, were the absolute standout. Um, so we have loved your work with us. I’m super sad to see you go. Can you just give us a sense of what you’re gonna be doing?

Researcher Al: Oh, hectic. Okay. Hey, everyone. Um, yeah. I’m moving on to, uh, a more freelance-based career, so I’ll be doing some journalism. I’ll be touring around the world, playing drums a fair bit. Uh, so-

John Dickson: Let’s… Hang on. Let’s, let’s just hover there for a second. ‘Cause people don’t know, do they? Well, I guess maybe couple of episodes we’ve, we’ve dropped hints.

[01:17:14] You’re, like, a seriously professional level drummer.

Researcher Al: Yeah. I, I work as a drummer for my night job. So I’ve always told people my day job is doing this history, Christian, phil- philosophy, literature, science, faith, much misunderstood podcast. And then f- yeah, for my night job I, uh, play with various artists, sometimes internationally, often around Sydney.

[01:17:38] So if you ever spy me at a show, come and say hey, and let’s, let’s chat about any, uh, Undeceptions related questions.

John Dickson: Ooh- Mate …

Producer Kaley: We’ll put, we’ll put Al’s, um, band in the show notes.

John Dickson: Oh, yeah. Mm. That’d be good. We love you, mate. We’ll, we’ll stay in touch, and, uh, God bless you and Em. Thank you.

Researcher Al: Cheers.

John Dickson: Undeceptions is the flagship podcast of undeceptions.com, letting the truth out.

Undeceptions podcast

John Dickson: Jesus’ teaching on forgiveness can transform not only individual human relationships, but entire civilizations. I’ll never forget our episodes on the Vikings. Now, researcher Al, I’m pretty sure you haven’t remembered what number those episodes are.

Researcher Al: I’m gonna guess 67 and 68. Without … I haven’t looked at all.

Producer Kaley: It’s 65 and 66. Oh. So close. Good job.

John Dickson: Man, you rock

Undeceptions theme