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Dis / Ability

Kirk Patston:
At, at the historical moment that we’re in, there’s a reluctance to put any negative language around impairment. So I, I appreciate all of that. That said, I feel like in all of that really good, really well-motivated stuff, we’ve lost the capacity to say disability has a sadness in it.

—

MEDIA: Forrest Gump clip

Forrest: Will you marry me? I’d make a good husband, Jenny

Jenny: You would, Forrest

Forrest: But you won’t marry me. You don’t wanna marry me. Why don’t you love me, Jenny? I’m not a smart man, but I know what love is

—

John Dickson (Studio)
That’s one of those heart-wrenching moments in cinematic history. The moment Forrest Gump, played by Tom Hanks, tells his best friend Jenny that he loves her, only to receive a seeming rejection. Forrest Gump won six Academy Awards and another 45 awards because it managed to successfully capture the joyous simplicity of the life of an Alabama man with an IQ of 75.

The moment is heartbreaking, though, because we realize that both friends are speaking the truth to each other. Forrest is not a smart man as the world measures smartness, but he is a good man, and he’d make a loving husband. He’s different from us, but at the same time, he’s one of us, and that’s the nub of the troubled relationship with disability.

Is Forrest disabled? He can’t do certain things like conjugate verbs and complex mathematics, which I can’t do either, but he can run, he can communicate, he can drive a fishing boat, and with the support of others, he’s capable of much more. So in those respects, he’s not disabled at all. And I should say that the word disabled is a contested term.

Some reckon it shouldn’t be used at all because the dis in the word disability has negative connotations. After all, it comes from a Latin term meaning to lack something or miss or fail. But as of 2026, when we’re recording, disabled still is the standard terminology. When there’s an agreed alternative, I’ll be changing quick smart.

But I’ll use the standard term for the rest of this episode, acutely aware that it might not be the best language for many people. And that brings us back to Forrest. Is he someone to inspire us? Someone who needs our compassion, perhaps? Or someone to simply let be? Maybe it’s all of the above. Maybe disabilities are meant to be both celebrated and, in a way, mourned.

And if that sentence makes you feel uncomfortable, you’re in good company, the company of people who have wrestled with Christianity and disability. Is disability something to be ashamed of? How should we respond to it? Should we be trying to cure it? And will there be disability in heaven? Big questions.

I’m John Dickson, and this is Undeceptions.

Each episode of Undeceptions, we explore some aspect of life, faith, history, science, culture, or ethics that’s either much misunderstood or mostly forgotten. With the help of people who know what they’re talking about, we’re trying to undeceive ourselves and let the truth out.

—

Jerrah Patston – singing
Go something like this, fellas One, two- Two, three, four. Going to a place where wineries were. Don’t get hit by the traffic lights, and don’t get caught in a traffic jam out on the M4. You can hear the bagpipes tuning up at these sort of events. And the voice of the pipe major giving commands. Quick march, quick march in the center. They blew air in the bag, and it sounded so good. They blew air in the bag.

—

John Dickson (Studio)
Well, that’s my new friend, Jarrah Pattison. Viewed one way, Jarrah is a 29-year-old man with an intellectual disability, autism, and a list of other things.

And then you blink, and you see a guy who’s a great singer, a creative songwriter, and a joyful conversationalist.

—

John Dickson:
Jarrah, um, tell me, how long have you been playing music?

Jerrah Patston: Uh, for about five years. 29. Yeah.

John Dickson: And so you sing- Mm … and you play guitar.

Jerrah Patston: Yeah. Oh, no Percussive lead. Mm-hmm. I call it percussive lead ’cause it’s a percussive instrument.

Yep. So you can just strum it. Yep. And normally support workers put a capo on- Yep … so it’s in open tuning. Mm. So- Oh, yeah … so the idea is it’s to strum it, and then make a song- So you ca- … out of it … ac- actually play a chord. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

John Dickson: And then you, um, you write songs as well. Yeah, so just about everyday things.

Jerrah Patston:
Mm-hmm. Yeah. So mostly when I had braces on my teeth when I couldn’t eat nachos. Yep. And the other one I wrote was about Paul McCartney. Uh, yeah, um, had- Didn’t play Monica and Ty in the video clip. Yep, yep, yep. You went to a concert. Yep, and then he didn’t play it. He didn’t play it.

John Dickson: He played, what, Hey Jude or something-

Jerrah Patston: Yeah at the end. Yeah. Yeah. Fantastic.

John Dickson: No, well, I’ve, I’ve watched all of that. Thank you. Um, and, uh, there’s one about, um, uh, raining, it raining all the time.

Jerrah Patston: Yes, it, it was, it was a s- song that came off my Sounds Like Rain album, so it came from that. Mm. When I wrote Sounds Like Rain, it made me think, “Oh, when was the rain gonna start?”

And then a song just appeared out of my mind, and then wanted to write a song about it, so there it is.

John Dickson: That’s fantastic. I’m someone who loves rain so much. Okay. The sound of rain. Yeah, yeah, yeah, the sound of rain. It’s really comforting. Oh, it’s brilliant.

Jerrah Patston singing:
Yeah. Yes. They blew air in the bag, and it sounded so good.

They blew air in the bag. In the back

—

John Dickson (Studio)
As a songwriter myself, or maybe I should say I’m a former songwriter, I was really struck by Jarrah’s unique approach to the craft. Uh, my songs, and I’m not sure whether producer Kaylee and director Mark will put a Spotify list in the show notes of my works, but anyway, forget that. They tended to be mostly conceptual, um, abstract, uh, maybe overly metaphorical.

And as I sat there listening to Jarrah, I couldn’t help noticing the beautiful way he observed small concrete things that make up our daily lives. He’s neurodivergent, but his poetry is detailed, highly specific, and connected to the real world. I said to his dad later that his songs almost feel incarnational.

But there I am again being stupidly abstract.

—
John Dickson:
Where do you most like to play your music?

Jerrah Patston:
Uh, at the Glenwood markets. Sometimes, sometimes for a preschool So that’s in public, right? Yeah, that’s in public. On the streets? Yeah. Yeah. Busking? You do busking. Yeah, busking. Busking. Yeah, I do busking- Okay … with one of my support workers.

John Dickson:
Can you make good money out of that?

Jerrah Patston:
Yeah. Uh, it’s not about the money, but it’s all about the fun. I’m sure it’s not about the money. No. But do people throw in money? Yeah. How fun. Yes. They can be very kind. They can chuck me, chuck me some money, and then they can think about it, like, “Okay, do you have any cash?”

But- But it’s not about the cash, so- No … we’re fine. You just love playing the music. Yeah, that’s the idea.

John Dickson:
How does it make you feel when you’re performing to people on the street there at the market?

Jerrah Patston:
It’s pretty good. It’s pretty good. Um, the vibe really, like, really gets them involved in music and how they sing- Mm-hmm and the way they perform. And it’s really nice to see a crowd, like, get involved, like, get audience involved, like, get excited for it. Like, get excited for a new chapter for them. Yeah. So it’s really exciting. And then- What else?

—

John Dickson (Studio)
Listening along with me is Jarrah’s father. The Reverend Dr. Kirk Patston lectures at the Sydney Missionary Bible College, Croydon College we often call it, for the last 26 years.

He has a background in speech pathology, as well as two research degrees in theology. He’s written, co-authored, and collaborated on several books, and in particular, he’s researched and written about disabilities studies and the Old Testament book of Job. Theologians are so multidisciplinary. I could never be a theologian.

—

John Dickson:
I’ve just had the delight of meeting Jarrah, your son. Uh, so I have an impression of him, but- Mm-hmm … y- y- you give me your sense of your son. What’s he like?

Kirk Patston:
Yes. Um- He’s quite a mystery. He’s an intriguing mystery, I think, because there’s a part of me that knows… I w- I used to be a speech pathologist. There’s a part of me that kind of knows things like IQ scores, and what neurologists have to say, and what a speech pathologist would say.

So I know that kind of way of describing what’s missing from his life, brain, thinking. Mm. But then I also know him as this charming, outgoing, creative, joyful, affirming presence in the world. And reconciling this, the, the deficit story and the blessing story of his life remains a mystery to me, um, that, that is actually profoundly joyful- Mm

for me. Yeah. Has he always been like that, or have you watched him, I don’t know, come out of his shell more since music, or just as he ages? Yes. So he didn’t speak until quite late. Mm. Um, he had uncontrolled seizures as an infant, and so he lost, like for a year and a half, just un- uncontrolled epilepsy, seizures every day.

So there was, there’s, it feels like there’s whole years of his life that weren’t there, sort of relationally. Mm-hmm. But we began to discover … I mean, we sang lots of lullabies. Like, music’s a big part of our family life, so it was sort of always there. But we began to notice at church that he’d gravitate to the drum kit.

This is, this is sort of when he’s about eight or nine, and we thought, “Okay, let’s start drum lessons.” And we couldn’t work out how we’d do that. Um, but we began to discover his sense of rhythm and that it kind of … There were things that just came naturally to him. Once he’d finished high school, um, we feel like he started to come to life in a new way then.

And it … And perhaps we realized, like, in a way, the school environment is lots of experiences of, oh, I guess failure or, you know, things being too hard or whatever. But once he was out of school, we could begin to design his life around his strengths. And my wife Lisa found in the paper that there was this project called Club Weld starting where, um, neurodivergent musicians and neurotypical musicians were going to be welded together into musical groupings.

And anyway, Jarra went and auditioned, and Sam, that’s where we met Sam. That’s- Mm … so this is 10 years ago or more. Um, but I, I remember saying earlier to Sam and the others, th- well, they all said, “This is, um, will be a songwriting workshop.” And I said, “That’s fine, but Jarra won’t be able to do that. That will be too hard for him.”

And it was almost like then, “Well, Dad, get out of the room.” So once Dad got out of the room, uh, somehow Sam discovered how Jarra could write songs. Mm.

—

John Dickson (Studio)
Jerrah has released at least 10 songs on Spotify, including an EP titled Abandoned Cricket Games, which is also available on vinyl. Remember vinyl? We’ll put a link in the show notes.

His current project is working on a concert with some of his songs being performed by the Australian Chamber Orchestra. True story. It’s gonna be amazing. It’s no surprise that Jerrah changed the way that Kirk thinks about disability.

—

John Dickson:
How has Jerrah, over the years, helped you think through, maybe not at the highest philosophical and theological level, just approach our topic that I wanna talk to you about of, of disability? Have, have, h- have you found that this experience, this lived experience has actually had a big influence, or did it just simply turn your mind to the topic, as it were?

Kirk Patston:
Oh, no. Big, a big influence. Kind of an undoing of me, really. Yeah. Um, I think I had a framework about Christianity, um- Which I, I knew intellectually I was always had to work against, that, um, what God really wants from me is, you know, lots of service of other people, lots of activity.

A very kind of activist, uh, account of Christianity. So, um, my wife and I have… We’ve got theological training and have worked in church ministry, and you’re always feeling that there’s more I can do. There’s more people I could talk to about Jesus. There’s m- you know, there’s better pastoral care I could offer, more, you know, there’s how can we grow things?

So you’ve got that kind of story where you’re, you’re productivity based. Sure. Um, and, and but with paradoxically at the same time knowing that the Christian message is actually about God’s grace- Yeah … where, you know, we don’t earn and where we’re actually unable to- Mm-hmm … perform. So it’s, it’s sort of weird.

Like, there’s this clash in it, and oftentimes I would identify and know that clash. But then along comes Jarrah, and, um, he c- he came along in a period in our life when Lisa and I had four churches to look after that were all struggling. Um, but one or two of them in particular were just sort of going through a time of change.

New people were coming. There was this sense of, aha, these churches that were dying are not going to die. God’s going to do something. And then along came Jarrah with these uncontrolled seizures, and, um, he didn’t sleep. Um, he’d just sleep in 40-minute little snatches. So we just… Our life was so chaotic, we just got to the point we just had to walk away from our ministry roles.

We just lived off government payments and people’s kindness for a year. And, um, so then you think, oh, who am I? You know, who am I as a Christian? Mm. What does God want from me? And you begin to see the dignity of, and the, the wasteful dignity of I’m going to care for one little person with epilepsy, um, rather than four churches.

Yeah. Um, and it do- doesn’t make economic sense. It’s not efficient. Mm. But that’s not to say that the Lord’s not in it, um, and that God might be actually doing something deep and important here.

—

John Dickson (Studio)
Up next, we move into some deep waters, medical versus social models of disability, and the contested territory of the language that we use, and the trouble with the Bible.

Stay with us.

BREAK

MEDIA:
Our next question is how should we view disability? Ooh. Something that needs to be fixed. Oh, not quite right there. Try again. Something to feel bad about and sorry for. Oh, nope, nope. One last try. Something to be inspired by, like, “Wow, I can’t believe you get out of bed with one hand. Now I’m ready to take on Everest.”

Absolutely not. That’s just a few of the ways we can sound patronizing when we talk about this subject. We try to sound supportive, um, but sometimes we can actually be offensive to people with disabilities.

—

John Dickson (Studio)
That’s a short video produced by the Australian Disability Network for the 2024 International Day of People with Disability.

It’s particularly focused on promoting the social model of disability, which I’ll talk about in a second. But let’s wind back. What are we talking about when we say the word disability?

According to the Undeceptions English Dictionary, otherwise known as the Oxford, a disability is a physical or mental condition that limits a person’s movements, senses, or activities. Simple enough, except that medicine also talks about disorders, conditions that disrupt normal physical or mental functions, and neurodivergence, where someone’s brain works differently from what’s considered neurotypical.

And pretty quickly, these categories, they start to overlap. Take autism. Some call this a disability. Others call it a disorder. Others just say it’s neurodivergence, and some would say it’s all three together. And then there’s the question of how we talk about people. Do we say a wheelchair user, for example?

Or do we say a person who uses a wheelchair? Is someone blind, or do they have a visual impairment? And some people aren’t comfortable with any of these labels, preferring to speak in terms of special needs or differently abled or even neuro spicy. It can get all pretty complicated because the words we choose often say something about how we understand disability.

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Kirk Patston:
They say something about us as much as the people we’re talking about. All the language around disability is so contested because, um, because it’s about real people who understand themselves in a whole lot of different ways. So it’s understandable that it’s complex language. John Swinton is a famous disability theologian, said everyone knows what disability is until you try to define it, and it’s actually very hard to define.

I like his idea, though, that disability is a series of experiences. And so, um, there’s, you know, there’s theoretical models about disability that say disability is… There may be some im- some impairment in the mind body, um, perhaps my leg doesn’t work in a typical way, or I’m missing a limb, or, you know, I’ve got a visual impairment or something.

But then it’s how that impairment interacts with attitudes, architecture, opportunities, services. And so at any one moment, a person with an impairment may be disabled or not be disabled. And in some ways, it’s sort of nice to put that almost like a passive voice. Mm. Like, has, has my environment disabled me?

Mm. And if it has, then I do have a disability.

—

John Dickson (Studio)
The 21st century has seen the rise of two different ways of approaching disability as a whole. People speak of the medical model and the social model. Uh, the medical model sees the root of the problem in the individual and their inability or lack of function. The social model sees the root of the problem in society.

Uh, it’s the lack of acceptance and accommodation that you find in society rather than any kind of disorder in the person. The medical model says I need to be fixed in order to fit into society, and the social model says society needs to change so that I can fit in. Maybe it’s not a simple either or.

Maybe it’s both, and it depends on the situation. A parent with a child struggling with ADHD probably hopes for more than just the medication the doctor is gonna give the child. They likely hope for a school that will implement the right programs that take into account attention disorders. So that’s the medical and the social working together.

—

John Dickson:
What about the biblical? Thinking of the Bible. Yes. Some people criticize especially the Old Testament- Yes … because it has what seem on the face of it to be mean things to say- Yeah … about the blind, the deaf, the lame. Yes, yes. How do you as someone who quite likes the Bible- Yes … um, pick up an Old Testament and come across those passages?

Kirk Patston:
Yes. I feel like there’s, well, there’s a complexity to how the, say particularly the Old Testament. But indeed, in fact, I mean, peo- people will be critical of the entire Bible, even, say, critical of Jesus that why doesn’t he just accept somebody who’s blind? Why does he feel the need to intervene, um, and, you know, s- do something about that?

Um, I feel like there’s, there’s some social justice themes around the poor, the crippled, the blind, and the lame that run through Old and New Testament that a- that are dignifying and would resonate with our contemporary values around disability. But there are certainly times, um, when disability seems to be used as a, a term of derision or mocking, and there’s stra- there’s a strange text about the exclusion of a priest, um, based on perhaps some sort of blemish.

READING

The Lord said to Moses, “Say to Aaron: ‘For the generations to come none of your descendants who has a defect may come near to offer the food of his God. No man who has any defect may come near: no man who is blind or lame, disfigured or deformed; no man with a crippled foot or hand, or who is a hunchback or a dwarf, or who has any eye defect, or who has festering or running sores or damaged testicles.

No descendant of Aaron the priest who has any defect is to come near to present the food offerings to the Lord. He has a defect; he must not come near to offer the food of his God. He may eat the most holy food of his God as well as the holy food, yet because of his defect he must not go near the curtain or approach the altar and so desecrate my sanctuary.

I am the Lord who makes them holy.'” Leviticus chapter 21

Kirk Patston:
I mean, that’s the … In Hebrew, that’s the sort of language, the blemished priest. Um, I’ve worked with people doing detailed research on that, and something that’s really interesting is that when you look at that blemished priest who was excluded from a particular activity in the temple, often in scholarship you’ll find people saying like, “People can’t be priests if they’re blemished,” or, “The blemished priest is e- excluded.”

But actually the text itself of the Bible is more subtle than that, and it’s just for a particular aspect of the ancient ceremony that the priest excludes himself, I think. And it’s almost like the person with disability is part of things, and actually is part of the meal that follows. So that person with a disability or impairment belongs to the community, but, um, is no, you know

is themselves a recipient of a command wh- where they can choose to exclude themselves from a particular moment in the ceremony. The, the trick then is working out, well, what is it about the symbolism of that? And there are perhaps two ways of coming at that. One way is to say that a lot of what goes on in the tabernacle in the temple is about imagining what the creation was like before sin came into the world.

And so then if you associate that the kinds of impairments that the ex- priest might be experiencing don’t belong in that story, then he excludes himself for that moment for symbolic reasons. Or it could be that that, that moment in the ceremony is a symbol of the new creation to come.

—

John Dickson (Studio)
One thing the Bible is absolutely strong on is that all people are made in the image of God.

Genesis 1:27, “So God created humans in His image, in the image of God He created them, male and female He created them.” As we said in our episode on that theme, it’s Episode 174, the expression image of God means that every human being, regardless of capacity or utility, is precious to the Creator Himself.

He regards us as His offspring, which is a key part of the biblical idea of image. When we turn the page though to Genesis Chapter 3, we’re told that humanity fell from God’s blessing through disobedience. As a result, humans now experience a level of decay in all three spheres of our existence. The spiritual of course, the social, but also the physical For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed.

READING
For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God. We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.

Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies.
Romans, Chapter 8

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Kirk Patston:
So, I mean, if, if we want to go like a creation for redemption pattern, like o- often Christians- Uh-huh … you know, talk in those ty- terms.

So there’s probab- probably a reasonable, reasonably traditional account is that God makes a world in which there are no impairments or illness or sickness. Perfect, w- is the- Perfect … we often use. Yes. Yes. Um, the Hebrew word doesn’t isn’t perfect. Mm-hmm. It’s, it’s the word good. So that, so then that you can see already we’re starting to ponder.

But g- God creates a perfect world. Humans disobey the voice of God. Um, there are consequences for all of creation. Sickness and illness enter the world. When Jesus comes, he gives us a glimpse of a different kind of world. So he doesn’t do this for everybody, but he is able to make the blind see and the lame walk and so on.

And th- then I, I would say he’s giving us a taste of the new creation.

—

John Dickson (Studio)
That’s the climax of the traditional Bible view. There will be a new creation, a redeemed heaven and earth that will be set free from the decay we now experience, and that redemption includes our bodies. As the Romans 8 passage puts it, not only the creation, but we ourselves groan inwardly while we wait for adoption, the redemption of our bodies, it says.

Another passage ties it directly to Jesus’ own resurrected body. So in Philippians chapter 3, the Apostle Paul tells us, “We eagerly await a Savior from heaven, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.”

On the standard view, redeemed bodies equals no more disabilities, but not every Christian theologian sees it like that. Stay with us.

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BREAK

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MEDIA  

So I have a very strong opinion on this because I’ve been told on more than one occasion by well-meaning Christian friends that, “Oh, you know, you’re gonna be six feet tall and 210 pounds,” and all this business. And I’m saying, “No way. No way.” I am, who I am is the way I am now, and for me to think that somehow or other the reason I want to believe in Jesus Christ as my savior and go to heaven is because that way I’ll be better, I just think that’s just wrong thinking.

‘Cause it undervalues your life now. It does. Yeah. It’s very, I, you know, I, I know they’re mean- well-meaning, but that’s the wrong answer.

—

John Dickson (Studio)
That’s part of a video created by Kevin Timpe, professor of philosophy at Calvin College, and himself the father of a son with disabilities. It’s a heart-moving interview with people with disabilities and their families about their perspectives on heaven.

It’s an emotional issue. How could it not be? God created my disability. This is who I am. That’s one way of thinking about it. There’s a growing movement in disability theology that holds that some disabilities won’t be cured in the kingdom come. Late 20th century scholar Nancy Eiesland, in her influential book The Disabled God, pointed to Jesus’ resurrected body and the fact that he still bore in his flesh the marks of his crucifixion to argue that disability may not be healed in heaven, as is so often thought.

Jesus’ scars were an important part of his resurrected identity. They made him recognizable to his disciples as the Son of God.

—

MEDIA – Amos Young
So, um, all of that then led me to think about, well, what would it mean for me to, um, interact with someone like my brother Mark in heaven supposedly healed or cured of his Down syndrome?

John Dickson (Studio)
That’s Dr. Amos Yong, professor of theology and mission at Fuller Seminary, talking about his adult brother who has Down syndrome. Dr. Yong is one of the leading proponents of the retentionist view of disabilities in heaven, drawing on the arguments made by Nancy Eiesland, and also theologian Stanley Hauerwas, who argued that eliminating or healing a person’s physical or mental difference would erase their unique identity.

A condition like Down syndrome is so intrinsic to his brother Mark’s identity that if it were healed, Mark would be unrecognizable. And from the little the Bible tells us about the kingdom, we can be confident that we will all be recognizable.

MEDIA – Amos Young continued
And I guess I began to think about Down syndrome less as a problem that Mark had and more as a set of relationships that Mark had and that therefore people like myself had with him that were differentiated from other relationships.

Maybe Mark’s healing and curing will, will involve less a matter of an erasure of, if you will, the expressive manifestations of his Down syndrome. Because we wouldn’t say that, that our behaviors or the way we look would completely be erased in heaven. Um, they’d be transformed, but would still be recognizable Mm-hmm And then I noticed that, well, yeah, Jesus’ resurrected body included a scar that allowed his disciples to identify him Mm-hmm Right?

That there was something that allowed ongoing recognition. And so then it became the question of, okay, then the, the redemption of someone like Mark in that respect is the redemption of all of us. It’s the transformation of who we are, but yet in ways that nevertheless allow our recognition. And, and from that perspective, um, what’s wrong with Mark is less Mark’s problem than a world that doesn’t know how to engage with him, understand him- Hmm

respond to him, and embrace him. And maybe what heaven involves is less that Mark gets fixed, but the rest of us get fixed so that now all of a sudden we can enjoy Mark and his contributions in ways that right now we’re just a little bit too, um, un- not, not as able to do, right?

John Dickson (Studio)
Kirk definitely has time for this alternative vision, even if he’s not entirely convinced.

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Kirk Patston:
I think that comes home particularly strongly if you live with some sort of chromosomal abnormality. Mm-hmm. Um, s- so if in every cell of your body there is a particular genetic shape, um, that we might call Down syndrome or trisomy 21 or whatever we want to call it, um, for example, um, it’s hard to conceptualize who would you be, um, in the new creation.

How can there be continuity between you, your identity now and your, and your identity then?

—

John Dickson (Studio)
Trisomy 21, commonly known as Down syndrome, is a distinct form of disability because it occurs at the chromosomal level. It’s a genetic condition caused by an extra full or partial copy of chromosome 21. It’s the most common chromosomal anomaly, affecting about 1 in every 700 babies in the US, and 1 in every 1100 babies in Australia.

Children with Down syndrome are born with characteristic physical features, and they face certain intellectual challenges, among other things, all of which can shape how they develop and how they experience the world around them. And because of this, some parents of Down syndrome children say it’s impossible to separate who their child is from the condition itself.

—

Kirk Patston:
So I can appreciate the complexity of thinking that. Mm. I also… I’m very sympathetic to the fact that often people with disability, their entire life is shadowed by stigma, uh, lack of opportunity, being demeaned, having to advocate again and again, fight again and again. And so then It feels like it’s too much to concede- Mm

that I’m not enough. Mm. Um- Mm. Yeah, because every- The addition … yeah, everyone says that I’m not enough. Yeah. And I’m sick of it.

John Dickson:
And an eschatology that says, “It’ll one day be great,” actually, in a way, weird way, underlines- Yes … the deficiency now. Yes. I mean, you s- you mentioned in passing that, that, I dunno if you were joking or not, but that people e- would even critici- some theologians would even criticize Jesus- Yes, yes for healing the blind- Yes … for that reason.

Kirk Patston:
Yeah, exactly. That they’re in print- That’s it … saying that, are they? Yes, yes, yes. Or at least at conferences maybe. Uh-huh. You know. Uh-huh. In a, in a presentation.

John Dickson:
Yeah. So I’d love to ponder this. Mm. Because, I mean, I have read some of that literature and- Yes … I must admit, I’ve really struggled to believe it.

I understand the psychological and moral motivation. Um, but so much, it’s, it, in some ways it proves too much, to my mind, because if saying something’s gonna be mended i- in the new creation is an inherent demotion of the present, then that applies to everything that’s not quite right now.

Kirk Patston:
Yes. Yes.

Yes. Uh, my, I mean, my moral frame- Yes … is pretty crappy. Yes. But it’s me. Yes, yes. So anyway, you, you help me. You’re the expert. Help me think this through.

Kirk Patston:
I, what I think might be going on in this, so I’m, I, I, I agree with what the, the, the direction of where you’re going in what you just said. I think what’s going on here is there’s a reluctance at, at the historical moment that we’re in, there’s a reluctance to put any negative language around impairment.

Mm. And in fact, even the language of impairment is out of date really, because we’re, there’s increasingly talk of difference and neurodivergence and- Yeah. Differently abled. Yes. I’ve heard people say. Yes. That’s- Instead of disabled. Yeah, that’s right. And I mean, I think back, like I, so when I trained as a speech pathologist, we had these books, um, programs that we’d do, like somebody, uh, what we would, would be diagnosing then as autism, we’d be wanting to train that child in making eye contact.

But now I’d be told i- in the world of speech pathology that that’s, that’s not neuro affirming. Like, o- okay, some people don’t make eye contact when they talk, um, and that’s okay. Stop pathologizing that. So a- and there’s a part of me thinks, yes, like I, I, I think back to my life as a therapist, I mainly worked with adults, but in, in the little bit of work I did with kids- It is almost like you’re giving the kid a message, “You’re not good enough.

You know, change, change, change, change, change.” And I… So then I really appreciate the sense of you’re valuable as you are, and we can adapt. You know? Okay, I might feel odd that you’re not making eye contact, but I can work on me. So I, I appreciate all of that. That said, I feel like in all of that really good, really well-motivated stuff, we’ve lost the capacity to say disability has a sadness in it, or I want to lament this.

And I find, um, I find when I speak to parents of, of who are perhaps just discovering, um, that they’re on this journey of disability with their child that perhaps they weren’t expecting, um- They’re wanting both. They need to lament, and they need to celebrate, and they need permission to know that you can actually hold those two together.

And even though they might be rationally incoherent at some level, they’re, they’re actually existentially, they’re not incoherent. You can live with sadness and joy at the same time. And here’s where, where I think a robust biblical Christianity really helps us. So, um, the, you know, the, the Psalms, the prayer book, hymn book of the Bible is at once tragically sad and jubilantly happy.

Um, and, and I think that’s the life of faith. And so I think if, if we have the honesty to name the sadness and to name the gladness, then to think that things will be different in the new creation isn’t as offensive. Hmm. Yeah.

John Dickson:
So what would you base this on? Like, what are your arguments or Bible passages that move you away from that pretty dominant view that disability, you know, won’t be fixed, as it were? What are, what are the texts that push you in, uh, in, in the direction that these things will be enhanced, mended?

Kirk Patston:
Yes. Um, well, I think when I think of my … So maybe this isn’t a biblic- a chapter and verse, but, um, the sense in which the, the creation begins as a small garden, book of Genesis, and ends as a large city, book of Revelation, makes me think that we’re moving

The, the world in God’s purposes is moving beyond, um, what we see in creation, so that, you know, there’s more to come, and it’s unimaginably more. So there’s that. Across the prophets in the Old Testament, they’re not ash- they’re not embarrassed to talk about the blind seeing, the deaf hearing. You know, th- those

Now, often they’re metaphors, but they do speak of, um, that the world is going to be transformed. And then as we’ve touched on before, the healings of Jesus for me are signs. Like, I feel like Jesus is the new king- the kingdom stepped into the flesh, entering human history, and He shows us, “Hey, there’s a way of being human that’s full of love, of, and grace and truth and wisdom that you haven’t, you’re not yet experiencing in your humanity and in your relationships, but I’m showing you where the world is going.

And look, here’s a person who can’t see. Now they can see. I’m showing you where the world is going.” Mm. Yeah. Yeah, like His healings are, are the trailer for the feature film that’s coming. Yes. That’s a lovely way of putting it.

READING
“Then they brought him a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute, and Jesus healed him, so that he could both talk and see.

All the people were astonished and said, ‘Could this be the Son of David?’ But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, ‘It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.’ Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, ‘Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand.

If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.’

Gospel of Matthew, chapter 12.

—

John Dickson (Studio)
Let’s press pause. I’ve got a five-minute Jesus for you. Uh, Jesus was famous for miracles. You may have known that. Whatever you make of them today, they’re not a minor feature in the gospel accounts. Healings, exorcisms, and extraordinary deeds are everywhere in our accounts of Jesus. But here’s a question we don’t often ask: What did the miracles mean to Jesus himself?

At one level, the answer is pretty straightforward. They were demonstrations of power, or they were demonstrations of his compassion. So in Matthew’s gospel, chapter 14, we read, “When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on them and healed their sick.” Jesus saw people suffering, felt compassion, and did something about it.

But there is more going on. The Gospels regularly use two words for Jesus’ miracles. One of them is dunamis, powers. That’s pretty obvious. The other is semeia, uh, signs. And a sign, by definition, points beyond itself. So that’s the question. What did Jesus’ miracles point toward, according to Jesus himself? The answer has everything to do with the central message that he preached, the Kingdom of God.

For ancient Jews, the Kingdom of God was the hope that one day the creator would set the world right. Evil would be defeated, justice would be restored, sickness and death would ultimately be overcome. God would prove himself king over creation. That’s the basic thought. If you’ve ever wished that the Almighty would do something about the mess, the decay in our world, you’ve wished for the Kingdom of God, even if you wouldn’t have called it that.

And there’s an important saying of Jesus recorded in the Gospels in slightly different wording that is really important for this question. Matthew has Jesus say in Matthew chapter 12, “If it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the Kingdom of God has come upon you.” Luke puts it slightly differently in chapter 11, “If I drive out demons by the finger of God, then the Kingdom of God has come upon you.”

Now, scholars generally agree that Matthew and Luke got this saying from an earlier collection of Jesus sayings that they call Q. That really matters. It, it means that this connection between Jesus miracles and the Kingdom of God somehow being present isn’t just a theological flourish invented by Matthew or Luke, as some skeptics might say.

It belongs to an early strand of the Jesus tradition independently preserved by Matthew and Luke. That’s the importance of the idea of Q. Anyway, that’s for another day. The point of all of this is remarkable. Jesus is saying that the future kingdom that everyone in his day was waiting for had somehow broken into the present in his miracles.

The Kingdom of God isn’t there in all its fullness. People are still getting sick, injustice continues, people still die. But he’s saying that in the strange events taking place in Galilee in his life, people were seeing a glimpse of what God’s future kingdom would be like. The sick were healed. Those oppressed by evil were restored, and in a few extraordinary cases, even the dead were raised.

The historians Gerd Theissen and Annette Merz point out that this idea was utterly unique in antiquity, the Jewish expectation of universal salvation in the future and the experience of salvation right now through individual miracles. They called Jesus’ ministry a time of salvation in microcosm. Now, I know that’s super nerdy, but Jesus miracles weren’t just displays of power and compassion, as important as that is.

They were previews of the future They were little glimpses of the world Jesus said God would one day bring about in full. Or to put it another way, if the kingdom of God is the feature film we’re all waiting for, Jesus’ historical healings were the preview. They give a glimpse of the glorious future God intends to bring.

You can press play now.

—

John Dickson:
Hey, Mark. Uh, in the middle of the episode on disabilities, do you mind if I do a little phone-a-friend with you?

Director Mark:
Yeah, sure. Um, I miss not having my handset, but go right ahead.

John Dickson:
Um, tell me about Jacob, your boy.

Director Mark:
So Jacob, beautiful Jacob, is, uh, 23, but he was born, uh, with oculomotor apraxia. So it’s a, a very complicated way of saying that his eyes couldn’t, um, track the way that normal children’s eyes track, and so he had no ability to focus on anything, no balance, no…

something like that. And he also is, uh, intellectually disabled, and so he’s, you know, uh, like a, a very young man, uh, a young sort of primary school kid. Uh, and, uh, he has some, um, motor skills, uh, so he can’t really hold things properly or, or that sort of stuff.

John Dickson
What have been the main challenges? Uh, you know, I mean, were, were the challenges greater, I don’t know, when he was an infant or a toddler, or, or do they become more pronounced as he ages?

Director Mark:
I think they, they get, they get more pronounced as… Well, I mean, they travel through different directions. Yeah. Like, when he was, uh, a baby, all we noticed was that he wouldn’t ever focus on us, and we just thought we were just boring or something like that. When, um, he got older, though, he couldn’t… He was just missing all those milestones.

Like, he couldn’t walk, he couldn’t talk, he couldn’t, um… So it wasn’t until, uh, two and a half that he was able to get up, you know, on his feet. And, uh, he went to school non-verbal. So basically, it was humorous in one respect, he had a great big lanyard around his neck with 100 photos that, you know, he would try and flick.

We, we, we gave him far too many photos in the end. In retrospect, he probably could have fallen over sideways given what we’d put around his neck. But, uh, as he’s, as he got older, it was clear he was not going to meet the same, uh, intellectual goals that, um, you know, kids generally pass through. Uh, and though he was growing as a, into a, a young man, in many respects he was still the same, you know, as he’d been as a young lad.

John Dickson: Um, where, where do the joys come from? I mean, you know, obviously there are joys amidst the challenges.

Director Mark:
Oh, there are. There are. I mean, there’s a couple of things that are really, like we thank God for every day. Um, the first is that Jacob is remarkably simple. Um, and I don’t mean that like in an intellectual way.

I mean, I mean that in, in terms of his desires- Mm … and his likes. I- in one respect, um, you know, he, he’s our forever boy. You know, you know when parents say, “Oh, we’ve got this wonderful age. They’re at that wonderful age now when they’re, you know, they’re just curious, and they’re questioning, and they’re, they’re fun to be around, and they wanna give you a hug, and they love you,” and that sort of stuff.

Well, that is our Jacob, and has been for the last 23 years. So, you know, we’re not, we’re not gonna move out of that stage in one respect, and so that’s something that’s really joyous. And I think the second thing is that, um, for many people, big life-changing intellectual decisions and things like that just don’t worry him.

Um, so when we talk to him about God, he just loves God. You know, th- that, that’s fine. And it’s not that he hasn’t considered it, it’s just that he’s not worried by some of the bigger questions. You know, he is, he’s just quite accepting and, and happy in his relationship.

John Dickson:
One of the things we’re exploring in this episode is the, um, newer theological, uh, proposal that- God making all things new in the kingdom when God brings his kingdom.

Uh, some disabilities, uh, many disabilities will continue into the kingdom because, um, well, a bunch of factors. But, uh, you’ve obviously had to think this through. Just, you know, in a sentence, what’s your global view on the coming kingdom?

Director Mark:
Oh, we think that Jacob is going to be every bit the person God designed him to be.

The, you know, the world has intervened, uh, and has, has changed the way that Jacob could have flowered, you know, who he, who he could have been. Uh, and God is gonna bring that to fruition. That was his intention, and so that’s how we see it.

John Dickson:
But how do you respond to people who would point out, uh, that by saying, you know, Jacob needs to be fixed in the kingdom c- come, uh, you’re in some way denigrating Jacob now?

Director Mark:
I don’t think, um, fixed is the right word. I, I think Jacob is gonna be fulfilled in the kingdom to come. Um, and that’s the same for Maya and I, um, and in fact, my other two boys as well. You know, there are all sorts of things that attach themselves to us or come from our, our attitudes as we go through life.

Uh, and I might as well say, um, Jacob is … You know, if Jacob is denigrated for having his struggles, then am I denigrated for having, you know, an obsessive compulsive personality?

John Dickson:
I mean, yes- Yeah. … you know we denigrate you all the time.

Director Mark:
But, uh- Yeah, but that’s the thing. Like, I mean, I’m, I’m actually gonna be John approved by the time I actually get to heaven, you know?

That’s, that’s actually gonna be a good thing. And I just-

John Dickson:
Some would say the change will happen on my side. Well, I mean- The, the greater miracle …

Director Mark:
Look, I think it’s, it’s both. Look, we are all gonna be more understanding and more capable of living with each other when we’re in heaven. But I don’t think it means that, um, that Jacob doesn’t have struggles that are gonna be removed, just in the same way that we’re not going to.

You know, I’ll, I’ll put it this way. When Maya and I consider a question like that, we think of Jesus. You know, when Jesus talked to people who had disabilities who came to him, um, and they said, you know, um, “Lord, I want to see,” or something like that, Jesus didn’t say to them, “But actually you’re really fine the way you are.

It’s, it’s us that’s gotta change.” You know, no, he actually gave them the gift of a realized kingdom of God in their life then, you know? And, and I feel like we are … When we look at stories like that, uh, with our family, we love those stories because we’re getting little glimpses of what will be very personal for us when we get to heaven.

John Dickson:
The other thing people say is it, you know, it won’t be the same Jacob, uh, i- if Jacob’s gonna be restored or fulfilled, as you put it. Yeah. It’s a different person because his disability is so much part of his identity now.

Director Mark:
Yeah, I, I’m not sure I see his disability and his identity so tightly entangled. Um, I, I do understand, um, parents who feel that way.

Um, we have friends with all sorts of dis- different disabilities as part of just being in this community. But, um, you know, Jacob is not the sum of his disabilities. You know, i- in essence, we would say underneath it all, there is a Jacob that we really know. And, and we know Jacob really quite well. Um, and he- there’s a, there’s just a separate identity to the things that he struggles with.

Uh, and the struggles are accretions, are layers that sit on top of him, and it would be strange to say that he, um, doesn’t want to see them gone as well. You know, Jacob has spent his life, um, trying to move past some of these things, and he may, in some respects, be a, a simpler mind, but he’s aware that he wants to be able to speak better, you know?

And he wants to be able to, to move with the freedom that doesn’t come from a, an altered sense of balance. And he wants to be able to pick things up and be able to manipulate them without dropping things because he practices this all day, and he sees friends, and he gets excited about his friends doing things, but he wants those things too.

So saying that somehow, you know, he is going to be less for, um, not being in the state he’s in now is forgetting that Jacob actually is anticipating something himself.

John Dickson: Mark, uh, thanks so much, mate. And- Happy to, mate … and, um, get stuffed. [Loud laughter]

Director Mark: We should probably drop that last bit. [Loud laughter]

—

John Dickson:
You’ve watched Jarrah become a, a member of the church. Yes. Um, without picking on your church in particular- Yes … which I’m sure is fantastic, uh, what do you think the church per se, uh, does well, um, on this topic of disabilities? Mm-hmm. And what do you think it needs to learn?

Kirk Patston:
So much to say As a family, I would say for most of our time with Gerald we have experienced great generosity, um, in housing, in financial support at times when we’ve needed it, kindness Um, we’ve had some terrific support workers and so on come out of relationships within the church. The church has… I mean, it’s the way it wor- it’s worked for Jairus, given his musicality and your comment earlier that music, uh, church is one of the few places left- Hmm

where we publicly make music, uh, you can see we’ve managed to find a lovely fit. So most weeks Jairus is in some ways involved in the music team at church. So, um, there’s a theory in particularly around intellectual disability but, uh, but, uh, more broadly that, um, one of the best things you can do to prevent stigmatizing and marginalization is to give people valued roles in society.

And, uh, in God’s kindness, I would say that’s d- he’s offered to- that to Jairus through music. So, and I mean, honestly, like he got… So he got to s- come and sing on a podcast, and i- he’s doing work now with the Australian Chamber Orchestra. Mm-hmm. So he’s got an incredibly valuable social role- Hmm … through music.

Hmm. That said, uh, my wife and I and others, uh, do education presentations, advocacy presentations at churches often on inclusion and belonging, and what we’ve found over the years of doing that is that the people who come to those are the parents or the people themselves with disability. And we do a two, three-hour presentation, and often we’re left with people sobbing to say, “You’ve just presented me with an ideal of inclusion and belonging, but it’s not what I experience, and there’s nothing I can do about it.”

And there is a bit of a theme out there of ministers or Christian leaders-

Putting disability quite low down in the list of priorities Yeah And I would think if you sort of scratched below the surface a bit, just feeling worried that if we get lots of people with disability at church, it’s going to overwhelm us, or it’s gonna be more work than we can do, or it’s m- you know, it’s too hard.

Mm-hmm. Um, so I, I, I feel like there’s hundreds, thousands of Christian people with beautiful hearts and generous love around disability, I feel. But at the same time, there are s- systems or structures that are scared of the inefficiency that is around disability. And I think as ch- like churches… I’ve been in ministry, you know, I’ve, I’ve…

It’s stressful. Your numbers aren’t big enough, you, you know. Is there enough money in the plate? How do we preserve this old building? Like, it’s hard. And if you’re targeting lots of people who are pensioners, who are not contributors, I… You know, I hate myself talking like this, but you can understand, um, people thinking of the church as an organization that’s gotta have certain efficiencies and certain productivities and so on.

But, um, I wish there was a world where, um, that anxiety around that could fall away, um, and there could just be a, a more simple, less anxious embracing of people with disability.

—

John Dickson (Studio)
Disability can be messy. It can be inefficient. Parents who make it to church with a disabled child may have overcome enormous barriers just getting to the car park. They should be welcomed. Adults with disabilities are sidelined often enough in society. They shouldn’t experience that in church. But perhaps there’s a deeper lesson here for the so-called able-bodied people.

People with disabilities aren’t an inconvenience. They’re not a mistake. Their lives aren’t problems to be managed away. Christians believe disability is part of a world that isn’t as it should be yet. The disabled will experience restoration, glorification, to use the word I quoted earlier from Philippians chapter 3, and so will the able.

In whatever way, uh, God in His wisdom sees fit, medical and social deficits will be overcome so that we can all live a full life. And so by no means do people with disabilities fall outside God’s purposes or beyond His love or somehow bear His image a little less than the rest of us. In fact, the Bible repeatedly shows God working through human limitations.

When God calls Moses to lead His people out of slavery, Moses protests that he is slow of speech and tongue, but God says to him Who gave human beings their mouths? Who makes them deaf or mute? Who gives them sight or makes them blind? Is it not I, the Lord? Now go. I will help you speak and will teach you what to say.

Exodus chapter 4 If the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus, the center of Christianity, teaches us anything, it’s that God works through weakness and pain, and can bring about glorious resurrection. Disability can involve real suffering for the person with the disability and for the parents and loved ones trying to support them in a world that isn’t always supportive.

But I would say Christianity, more than any vision of life, whether religious, philosophical, or scientific, has extraordinary moral and intellectual resources for living, even thriving, amid the challenges of disability. I know that sounds like the sort of thing Dixon would, of course, say, but ask yourself, what other worldview has such a robust vision of strength through weakness, resurrection beyond suffering?

—

John Dickson:
Can you put in a sentence with your theologian hat on why should Christians do that?

Kirk Patston:
Yes I think Christians do that as an act of justice and love, reflecting the character of God. I also think when you look at, say, 1 Corinthians and its image of the body, whatever Paul exactly means by his weirdness of the, you know, there are some parts that receive honor and so, and, and so on.

He sort of put modesty and honor and so on around the body I think he expects that there’s something glorious in God putting together a group of people who you would never think would belong together. Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ.

For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body, whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free, and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. Even so, the body is not made up of one part, but of many

The eye cannot say to the hand, “I don’t need you.” And the head cannot say to the feet, “I don’t need you.” On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable. And the parts that we think are less honorable, we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, while our presentable parts need no special treatment.

But God has put the body together, giving greater honor to the parts that lacked it, so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. If one part suffers, every part suffers with it. If one part is honored, every part rejoices with it. 1 Corinthians chapter 12.

And I actually, I recently had, was Mark Stevens here, one of our New Testament lecturers, even wanting to come at 1 Corinthians not from a functional point of view. It’s not as though we’re arms and legs and eyes in order to be able to do something. It’s even just that that is the goal. Isn’t it wonderful that God can put, I mean, it’s a bit of a New Testament theme, I would say, that God puts together Jew and Gentile when you wouldn’t expect it.

He puts together rich and poor, male and female, slave and free. That’s something of the glory of what the gospel can do. I’ve got a friend who works in this area who’s trying to work out how to use the motto, strengthening the church with the presence of people with disability. And I like, there’s something in that.

There’s the paradox of church is richer and better and truer if there are people with disability.

—

Jerrah Patston singing:
All right, what’s this one called? We’re now riding on a plane and this one was for my housemate as well because I live with her. So lovely housemate for me to write a song for.

Hopefully she’ll like it. Renee, riding on the plane, sitting on a flight, she’s going to Cannes. Up in the air above the clouds. It’s somebody’s birthday

—

John Dickson (Studio)
Richer, better, truer if there are people with disabilities. I love it. I think that’s true.  just in my short time with Jarrah. I was particularly struck by the earthy, everyday nature of his songs, pointing us to the beauty and fun of living in God’s world.

As someone who often lives in his head, I found that enriching. Have a listen to his songs. I think you might as well. And Jarrah himself finds blessing in his church community, the togetherness, the focus on Jesus, and of course, the singing …

Jerrah Patston singing:
…on the escalator and pick up all your bags. Yeah. Yeah, and that’s called church community.

It’s like everyone is gathered in a whole church. You can almost hear beautiful voices- Mm … coming from them, and then just think, “Gonna sing at church. Gonna sing at church anyways.” So that’s the idea. Yeah.

John Dickson: What else about church do you like?

Jerrah Patston: The people when- Mm … they are very friendly and nice. Yeah. And it’s just nice to see that community smile- Mm-hmm

when they come to church, like, to a Christian church. Like, they’ve never been to church before, so they don’t really know what it means. Mm. Yes. But we do. Yeah. But we know exactly what we mean. Yeah. So what does it mean for you? Uh, just come, just come in Christ, and just come and follow Jesus. That’s basically what church means.

John Dickson: That’s pretty simple. I like that.

CREDITS

Undeceptions is hosted by me, John Dickson, produced by Kaley Payne, and directed and edited by Mark Hadley. Sophie Hawkshaw is on socials and membership, and joins us in the studio today. Sophie! Siobhan McGuiness is our online librarian. Lyndie Leviston remains my wonderful assistant. Santino Dimarco is chief finance and operations consultant.

Our voice actors today were Yannick Lawry and Dakotah Love. Undeceptions is the flagship podcast of underceptions.com, letting the truth out.

Undeceptions theme